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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 13, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
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An ad hominem attack by definition lacks validity in the context of the discussion
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Dec 13, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
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Bottom line, as I see it, feminism is about equal rights and equal treatment for women. Fine, that's great. I fully support that
How is fighting sexual harassment part of that, any more than trying to curtail armed robbery or assault would be?
Fighting sexual harassment is about equal rights and equal treatment. I don’t understand how you can’t see that.
Our society is still structurally quite patriarchal, and the culture continues to instill toxic masculinity. Most hierarchical organizations are still top-heavy with men who have a desire to dominate and a sense of entitlement.
The vast majority of harassers and abusers are male and a vast majority of the victims are female. Not only have the harrassers used the power differential to try to coerce sex, but the male dominated society and it’s organizations have, as a whole, made it extremely difficult for these women who are not treated as fellow professionals, but instead as objects, to speak out without losing all they’ve worked for.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 13, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
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Warbler - We totally get that you don't get it. It's okay.......
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Dec 13, 2017 - 08:50pm PT
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The Warbler claims he wants a rational debate.
the reason that is tough is because, as of late, very near to every second statement that he types is either a half truth or exaggeration, it is emotional argumentation, it is an unverifiable statement stated as fact or it is an outright demonstrateable fabrication.
because for me this is a crucially important debate for our society to be having and as the above statement could easily be dismissed as emotional argumentation i'm going to take the time to go through the above categories, based only on his postings to this most recent thread. each category is in chronological order of posting. at the end of the day, this isn't about The Warble personally. i respect him putting forth his opinions here. if his opinions were only his own, and they were not shared by so many, i would not take the time to go through the following. in that regard TW, thanks for being honest on this board.
as i am not infallible, if TW is interested in debate and willing to provide documentation for his claims, i'm happy to debate facts based on more than his personal experience of being falsely accused [which i accept would have certainly been shItty].
as such i've numbered the following points for easy reference so that if TW is interested in a debate, in order to keep things efficient, he can just write the number and move onto his documented counterpoints, .
unverifiable claims
3. More men are falsely accused and punished than women who make false accusations are punished
i looked for documentation and was unable to find any. if i missed it please point me towards the correct peer reviewed study.
7. Women in general have all the power they need in today's society
if one in six women will be raped and only 0.6% of those rapes result in prison time, i'd argue that at least on that front they don't have all the power they need. this is only one example, i'd be happy to provide others if desired.
8. Overall, I think feminism has more that achieved its goals, and that societally we have close to a balance of power.
because this is a personal statement regarding TW's beliefs it is by definition true. As no real evidence has been shown, it is as all pure beliefs are: incontestable.
15. Why is it that feminists, with all their talk about equal treatment and "intersectional feminism" are typically the ones to hit below the belt if politely disagreed with when debating the details of their ideology?
i'd say both sides, at least as i've seen on this thread, [and at least if we include exaggeration, half truths and outright fabrications as "hitting below the belt"] have contributed to the gutter nature of this conversation.
17. Just an indication [Feminists] don't understand what [feminism] means.
i'm pretty sure that most feminists would give you something very near to the merriam webster definition for feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. if i'm mistaken please show me documentation of the prevalence of your assertion, as common sense says that someone who defines themselves as something, knows what the definition of the identifying word is.
22. Some won't even admit to significant biological differences.
name three, even fringe, academic feminists that do not believe there are any significant average biological differences.
emotional argumentation
1. Too many feminists [...] think only males can be sexists
the use of the words "too many" is a tactic that is used, so that one can make something sound significant without being pinned down as to even a near to exact number. one feminist thinking "only males can be sexist" could in The Warbler worldview be "too many". but without quantification "too many" is just vague emotional argumentation. the fact is there are many feminists that think females can be sexists at the same time that there are a few that think that "sexism" by definition must be institutionalized and from their view while men can be discriminated against, women can not be sexist as their discrimination towards men has never been institutionalized.
5. It seems lately in American culture that a woman can make a claim, without evidence, and the man is guilty until proven innocent.
"it seems" is used as a weasel word. one exemplary fact that has been mentioned before is that, at least with regards to rape, only 0.6% of cases result in incarceration time. while there have been a few [numbered in likely the hundreds] widely reported cases in the u.s. recently [that often due to the sheer number of complainants have had repercussions even though they have not gone through formal court proceedings] that might lead one to conclude that it is de facto wide scale truth that men are "guilty until proven innocent", it is myopic at best when we have the stats that we do. and if we are basing our views on "it seems" one could just as easily argue that the u.s. has a president who has had 18 women go on record to state their claims and to date there have been been no repercussions to give evidence to the opposite conjecture.
12. There are important and timely debatable issues here, try to be civil and rise to the occasion
agreed with the first half. if as i am in the process of showing even half of TW's statements were more than emotional argumentation, unverifiable claims, exaggerations or outright fabrications, then this might hold some weight.
13. If you can't articulate why you object to his opinions, or mine, maybe you should reassess what prompts the vitriol before resorting to absurd straw man arguments, ad hominem attacks and cyber psycho analysis.
many people have rationally responded to your opinions over the last few months. as but one example i gave you an opportunity to explain why you thought wilmot's initial thoughts were anything other than fabrications. i also asked you and those who agree with you some thought styled experiment questions to help me understand where you folks are coming from. you choose to mostly engage with and complain about emotional argumentation when, based on what i've read, that is your also your own bread and butter on this forum.
16. One of the most common examples of sexism in today's society is feminism, when it goes too far, which is quite often.
"quite": another emotional weasel word that implies much but quantifies nothing. please cite relevant peer reviewed stats if you have them.
19. Hiding questionable agendas behind feel good sounding words is the oldest trick in the book.
the implication, given the context, is that the word "feminism" is a feel good sounding word hiding a questionable agenda. as usual no supporting evidence is given
exaggerations and half truths
2. Maybe, but a lot more men answer for their actions than do women who lie about being harassed, groped, or worse, because women are basically never punished for that.
this is sort of true, but irrelevant when put into full context. that's because as has been documented up thread, with regards to rape a multitude of studies have shown that between 2-10% of rape claims are based on false allegations while 65-84% go unreported. so even if we take the larger number and 35% of claims are reported and every single one resulted in punishment for the males [something we know to be false as only 0.6% of rape cases result in incarceration time] and every single female who made a false claim got off scott free, then there would still be six times more females who went without justice then there were males who went without justice [this is specifically with regards to rape, but without further documentation there is no reason to believe that the lesser charges - sexual assault and harrassment - are on order of magnitudes any different]. so to cherry pick stats and say that a lot more men answer for their actions [which in and of itself is a dubious claim that i would challenge TW to show any verifiable documentation of] is, if true, only because at least 90 and likely more like 95 or higher per cent of cases are not based on false allegations and 98% of rapists are male, which in combination means more men, than women, are going to have to "answer for their actions". simply put there are many, many more men, than women, who need to "answer for their actions" in these regards.
4. but while intersectional feminists claim to fight for equality across gender, racial, ethnic, and income divides, they drop the ball when it comes to falsely accused males.
actually not whole scale true. there are many feminists who are aware and fight to push back against the reactionary [to the historical concept that women were by definition unreliable] idea that women always tell the truth. here is an article by leslie cannold an outspoken and prominent australian feminist. she is by no means the only one, nor particularly rare. to claim wholesale that feminists [intersectional or not] are uninterested in falsely accused males is at minimum an exaggeration.
6. There are so many different degrees of "sexual assault", "sexual harassment" and "sexual violence". Those mean different things to different people.
this is a half truth, because the implication is that there are no concrete definitions for these words. legally all of these words have very specific definitions. there are many people who think the world is flat. this doesn't change the fact that our very existence at this point in history is based on the understanding that the world is not flat ie. just because words mean many different things to people doesn't mean that they don't have agreed to structural [read legal] definitions.
outright fabrications
9. Sex and the withholding of it can be, and often is, a tool for gaining power.
someone saying no to a choice regarding their own body does not "gain them power". end stop.
10. What I can't deal with is radical feminists claiming women are equal across the board
based on his continuous writings on this matter, one of the most important concepts that i understand TW to be frustrated with is the idea that females are on average person for person in actuality the physical strength equivalents to males, and the only reason this isn't currently the case is due to structural sexism. despite his assertions, my life experience and my googling, i have never heard a feminist [radical or otherwise] who believes this. until he can point me in the correct direction, i have no choice but to assume this is similar to his postings of youtube videos showing random and unidentified by name, emotionally distraught females who are then termed "feminists" despite our not knowing anything about their world views, their contribution to peer reviewed dialogue, or basically anything other than that they were perceived to be females and ere wsaying things that the compiler disagreed with and so were then termed "feminists".
11. You're implying I feel entitled to anything I want from a woman, which is absolute bullsh#t
no you're words explicitly stated that. when you say "Sex and the withholding of it can be, and often is, a tool for gaining power" you document a failure to understand that someone saying no, for any reason, does not gain them any power. it is them making a choice about their own bodies. end stop.
14. So can one of you who was so offended by wilmot's posts point out what she said that you think warranted deactivation?
not a single person in this thread, previous to the above assertion said that they thought wilmot should have been deactivated. at least one person said they weren't sad that wilmot was gone. but this is different than saying they should be deactivated.
18. And the reason for that is that feminists keep changing their minds about what feminism is.
no feminism has, for as long as the word has existed, been defined as some near variation of "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes". the practice of feminism has focused on different fights at different times, but that doesn't mean that there has been collective wide spread disagreement that in its most simplest conception the "organizational equality of the sexes" is the definition for feminism.
20. Here's my definition of modern feminism: A movement that expresses women's ongoing dissatisfaction with some aspect of the culture they live in
words have collectively agreed to meanings. there is no need to fabricate your own meaning and then argue that those who define themselves as those words are problematic. you don't get to define a collectively agreed upon word. you can suggest an alternative, sure. but to claim that the collectively held definition doesn't exist is a fabrication.
21. After decades of clamoring for equal treatment and insisting on being equal to men, now feminists are spotlighting and vilifying sexual advances and suggestions both physically and verbally that men have made towards women as being THE feminist issue in our society that must be dealt with.
no. women are not "spotlighting and vilifying sexual advances and suggestions both physically and verbally that men have made towards women". unless you view a fat fifty year old female boss showing up naked to your "lunch meeting" as a sexual advance. i can give you tens if not hundreds of examples of sexual harassment claims that have been in the news that have nothing to do with "sexual advances". if you are serious please name ten that have been in the news, that you believe should be categorized as a "sexual advance" rather than sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape.
22. most sexual harrasment complaints from women involve acts that would make most men's day
no, the use of "most" is an outright fabrication. equivalent sexual harassment would involve a female boss grabbing a male by the balls or a fifty year old fat producer who showed up naked to a twenty five year old male's audition. i can't say i know of basically any males whose days "would be made" by acts such as these.
23. I fully support equal rights and equal treatment of the sexes.
you say you do. but the rest of your words, as demonstrated above and below, prove otherwise.
24. Sexual harrasment is not a feminist issue by the definition of feminism.
actually it is. the dictionary definition of feminism is [once again]: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. as has been shown throughout this thread, sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape happen in massively disproportionate numbers to females and with a massively disproportionate lack of resulting "justice" as compared to other crimes. if this doesn't make them an issue of equality and therefore "feminism" then i don't know what one could possibly logically put under that banner.
25. Sexual harassment is felt by females far more often than men. Males are nearly completely unfazed by the types of comments and advances from women that constitute harassment in the female mind.
you don't understand what sexual harassment is [ie. it is not just an unrequited sexual advance as you regularly seem to imply], nor that it is experienced, not just felt, by females in far disproportionate numbers as relative to males.
if you are so inclined, i look forward to a footnoted debate, that moves beyond the emotional argumentation, that you so frequently complain about. i don't necessarily always have immediate time to reply, but don't take that to mean that i won't.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 13, 2017 - 09:00pm PT
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I'm voting for nahooo for the win on this hopelessly stolen & hijacked by the Warbler thread, that was supposed to offer congratulations to Callie.
Soooo -----the Warbler, can you just stop posting here now?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
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Sexual harrasment is not a feminist issue by the definition of feminism. Think about it.
I know that's a lot to ask
Hard to think straight when that knee's jerkin'
Sexual harassment is a human rights issue, in my opinion, not a feminist issue.
Feminists are trying to get support for their dwindling numbers and an agenda that has largely been successful, and therefore less and less important.
Bottom line, as I see it, feminism is about equal rights and equal treatment for women. Fine, that's great. I fully support that
How is fighting sexual harassment part of that, any more than trying to curtail armed robbery or assault would be?
Warbler wins the "Mansplaining Cup" for 2017.
What else are you going to tell us that women think and believe?
I prefer to hear them, myself.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Dec 13, 2017 - 09:26pm PT
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Thank you nah000.
I was considering which pieces to follow up on, and then thought about the Monty Python sketch of a dude looking for the argument room, and I gave up and went back to work :)
But you nailed it.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 14, 2017 - 09:30am PT
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The fact nobody here is backing me up don't mean I'm not right
Yes it does.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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Dec 14, 2017 - 09:35am PT
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I've been working and climbing with women for decades, and have had exactly zero issues with "feminism." I don't understand why warbler goes on and on about it in every thread that mentions a female.
Congrats to crimps on her work.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2017 - 12:03pm PT
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BTW, Callie has read the comments here, and says hi to her friends. She no longer has a ST account. She finds the comments both heartening and bizarre (although not surprising), including the ones from the troll who follows her from site to site, trying to disparage her work.
As someone mentioned WAY upstream, she has gone through training to become an elected official, which she plans to do. She is just waiting for the right opportunity to come up.
I have volunteered to help her campaign, I hope the climbers of ST will join me in supporting her when the time comes.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 14, 2017 - 12:27pm PT
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What a hoot. Watching a bunch of aging white men debate the finer points of feminism!
;>)
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plund
Social climber
OD, MN
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Dec 14, 2017 - 12:40pm PT
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"...training to become an elected official.". Would love to see the syllabus for that course...I assume it must involve pandering, dissembling, soliciting and bloviating...do you get a certificate?
But seriously, folks, if more pols were like C it's likely the swamp would already be drained.
+1 for Professor Gill's comment above.
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L
climber
Just bearly here
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Dec 14, 2017 - 12:55pm PT
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BTW, Callie has read the comments here, and says hi to her friends. She no longer has a ST account. She finds the comments both heartening and bizarre (although not surprising)...
LOL!!!!
Hey Callie,
Congratulations on some well-deserved accolades! This pervasive hydra-headed issue needs to be spotlighted and eradicated, and good on ya for being in the vanguard of the challenge.
I'm also genuinely proud of you for stepping into that gaping cesspool of corruption that we lovingly refer to as American politics. You are well-suited (still have that HAZMAT suit?) and sorely needed.
Best wishes for your continued success, Couz.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 14, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
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I have volunteered to help her campaign, I hope the climbers of ST will join me in supporting her when the time comes
Republican or Democrat?
;>)
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L
climber
Just bearly here
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Dec 14, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
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whos training program?
I'm sure she's enrolled at Trump University....
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Dec 14, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
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I would love to see a debate twixt The Callie and The Don
Drumpf would not have a chance in a debate with Callie.
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L
climber
Just bearly here
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Dec 14, 2017 - 06:14pm PT
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^ ^ ^ I LOVE YOU, L!
Why thank you, eKat! I love you too, Sista!
Even avowed feministas can have a sense of humor
What are you talking about, Kevin? I’m not an avowed feminist. In fact, I heartily detest being labeled with ists and isms by anyone, even you. I’m just a climber, like most of us here.
I would love to see a debate twixt The Callie and The Don
Do you recall that scene from Monty Python and The Holy Grail? The one where the Black Knight kept trying to fight John Cleese, even after both his legs and both his arms were hacked off, and blood was spurting from every stump?
Just to give you a hint: Callie would not be the Black Knight.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Dec 14, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Dec 14, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
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both his legs and both his arms were hacked off, and blood was spurting from every stump?
‘‘tis nothing but a flesh wound”
Best scene EVER!
Susan
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