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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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That was Tony Yaniro.
For that Insomnia knob removal, and various other infractions, we used to call him The Rock Doctor.
It's all fun and games when going on way Down Under at some massively overhung sea cliffs, and written up with stellar wit by a provocateur.
But when it happens at home on pristine (mostly, except for all those hand drilled bolts) granite, whether to make something easier or harder, it just feels ... funky, if not wrong.
There's always context and continuum to contend with when forming an opinion on these things.
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Nuglet
Trad climber
Orange Murica!
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It is up to the First Ascentionist
If they want to modify the route, it is their decision because they are the FA
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2017 - 08:28am PT
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I absolutely disagree with the idea that the FA team somehow owns the route and can do whatever they want. Nobody “owns” a route. Climbs are there for everyone to experience.
The FA can rate the routes difficulty but that should be an interim rating that can be changed with consensus.
The FA should never be given the green light to manufacture (chipping, drilling, adding holds) a route to his/her own taste....the rock dictates that.
The only place where the FA should be given precedence concerns fixed protection.....and even this can sometimes be open to question.
Manufacturing routes is the height of arrogance, in doing so you are saying that if you don’t manufacture a hold neither you or anyone else can do the climb....guess what!
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WBraun
climber
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If they want to modify the route, it is their decision because they are the FA
So .... you like to take a beautiful virgin and debauch her according to your whims?
Did she say it's OK? Did she agree with you?
Huh ...... ?
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thirsty
climber
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Just want to second that. The idea that the first one to do a climb on shared public lands has some sort of ownership right to the route that allows them to decide everything affecting the route is antithetical to the possibility of climbing community self regulation. If we can't self regulate, we can't expect to continue to enjoy the freedoms we would all like to preserve. Furthermore, even the idea that local communities are entitled to adopt standards for either the creation or usage of routes that contradict what should be general community standards based on principles of maintaining access and minimizing impact that detracts from the experience of other users (including non-climbers) reflects a misconception of what is required for effective climber self regulation. The work and expense of putting up routes can be huge and the contribution that new routes make to the climbing community is appreciated by everyone. However, that doesn't mean that the actions of those who create routes are not subject to those reasonable constraints necessary to maintain access.
A chipped hold may detract from many other climber's current and future experience, but has little immediate effect on access, ecological impact or the public's perception of climbers. However, if acceptance of any chipping for the purpose of making a particular route climbable for a particular set of current climbers represents an erosion of the communities general commitment to minimizing overall impact, perhaps it can lead to despair about the possibility of self regulation and a collapse of the communities willingness to speak out against practices that do have a direct bearing on access. On the other hand, a dogmatic insistence on specific rules that experience has demonstrated will be bent or broken by reasonable members of the community can also erode the communities' commitment to self regulation. When some people obsess over a particular rule while others sometimes break that rule with outcomes that most people accept, the people obsessing over the rule seem like cranks and the idea of rule based self regulation hypocritical. Some routes have been created which connect large sections of excellent, natural features with a chipped hold or two through a section of blank wall. The community would probably be better off accepting that while such manufacturing is less than ideal, it is a practice that can't be condemned out of hand. It is a practice that has no real negative impact on access. In contrast, leaving chains and other types of draws on routes permanently or for entire seasons bothers many climbers as well as many non-climbers and is a more serious issue. The argument that chains are a less permanent affront to the shared natural environment than a drilled finger pocket is certainly true, but that truth is less relevant than the reality that the impact on the way in which the natural environment is actually shared by actual living people whose opinions have bearing on access is more negatively affected by the chains than the pocket.
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susu
climber
East Bay, CA
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Manufacturing routes is the height of arrogance, in doing so you are saying that if you don’t manufacture a hold neither you or anyone else can do the climb....guess what!
Reminds me of the jilted cry, "if I can't have her, nobody can," in this case, the fallen climber who can't make it through the crux of the climb after all the investment of putting anchors above it and bolts in it. All the money, time, effort, hope... invested into a sudden dead-end where someone else may end up with FA credit. Seems better to be humble, move on, let others take a stab at it than to chip.
What a slippery slope the concept of chipping is. It's against the rules in some places, right? JTree? But it's a good ethic not to in general as there is no stopping it from happening more and more especially with as much acceptance of it as appears in this thread.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Malibu has turned into a dripping glue, drilled pockets, unusable faces scraped off till somthing that looks like real a climb appears, plus ton of trees being cut down to do this.
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susu
climber
East Bay, CA
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Thanks DMT - Cheers! Hope to see you guys soon again...
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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I absolutely disagree with the idea that the FA team somehow owns the route and can do whatever they want. Nobody “owns” a route. Climbs are there for everyone to experience.
The FA can rate the routes difficulty but that should be an interim rating that can be changed with consensus.
The FA should never be given the green light to manufacture (chipping, drilling, adding holds) a route to his/her own taste....the rock dictates that.
The only place where the FA should be given precedence concerns fixed protection.....and even this can sometimes be open to question.
Manufacturing routes is the height of arrogance, in doing so you are saying that if you don’t manufacture a hold neither you or anyone else can do the climb....guess what!
100% agree. The only exception for manufacturing that I see as ok is on chossy cliffs where people manufacture a training facility out of nothing. In most CA granite crags there is no need to cut holds, the rock is great and needs no work. If you cant do it, find a route you can, or train harder and come back stronger. :) Never rock climbed in a place with manufactured routes but heard there are several places where a lot of good puppy training and climbing can be had (great article thank you for posting). It is a matter of personal preference if you want to climb in a place like this, but they exist.
https://www.mountainproject.com/v/owl-tor/105737231
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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That was Tony Yaniro.
For that Insomnia knob removal, and various other infractions, we used to call him The Rock Doctor.
Yaniro was always ahead of his time.
He was involved in manufacturing climbs for one of the early climbing comps (1989?) At the time Climbing magazine declined to publish the results because of the manufactured and bolt on holds. Who knows now days, times change.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/857386/The-Comp-Wall-history-whats-up-with-it
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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I am way to lazy to look it up, from the thread i linked:
Chipping-culprit-filmed-in-NY
There is other excellent banter, Like what my good friend Cosmic Opined in one of his posts, (between #401-420 I think?)
it went something along the Lines of: - Maybe the chipping was to Increase, make harder, the climb . . . BINGO, THat and to add a V10, where no climb exsited
then there in the 1st 20 posts, from the MIA:
Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Feb 20, 2013 - 06:19pm PT
Never met the guy. But haven't heard anything good.
One question that comes to mind is is that a natural boulder or an overgrown old quarry.
I know that there is a quarry near Kingston NY, that the locals actually replicated the route Chouca
by going to France, topoing the holds and then returning home to do the drilling. Crazy perhaps, but this is climbing.
Over on MP they're calling it at the Gunks. If so then the rangers there should handle it.
In the vid there's a reference to Kingston and text that reads "on public land".
If that's the case, well I just don't know. The beatings being recommended over on the other site probably isn't the answer.
Edit ....?
oh ? ok Jebus, I was responding to your comment.
your comment,Jebus H Bomz
climber?? Suckyeramento, CA Oct 9, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
This is exactly why I only climb in sustainably mined quarries. as to only climbing in quarries led me to remember that in the -Culprit filmed chipping- thread there was a long and entertaining back and forth, that in the most ironic twist drew in the one and only DONALD PERRY, bitching about the inconsistencies in enforcement, & public scorn being directed at others by the 'cool kids' who then went on to gain more glory than he did for similar antics. Or that was my take on the hard to follow rants of DJP, who's long history of antics and fine climbing make it a worthy read.
theres' also this good bit of comentary, that acts like chipping was a newr not older phenomena :
http://rockcricketgbma.blogspot.com/2013/02/notes-from-choss-pile.html
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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That is the exception I take with Vitaliy's post...we simply cannot take a "not my place to tell others not to chip holds" attitude because that sort of hands off approach (while in some ways admirable) can endanger our continued access to stone.
In my experience climbers lose access to some cliffs when instead of figuring their sh#t out within the community they bitch to the Forrest service endlessly or post dumb sh#t (like "need money to replace the rope on the alcove swing") on the internet.
So when any of us feel strong about something, contact people that chip in person. Much more productive to have face to face conversations to figure out the differences.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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That is the exception I take with Vitaliy's post...we simply cannot take a "not my place to tell others not to chip holds" attitude because that sort of hands off approach (while in some ways admirable) can endanger our continued access to stone.
What I was trying to say a few pages back was that after I realized why I personally was against chipping (because it changes the challenge for future climbers, not because of an impact to the ecology. Which BTW is the same way I feel about retro-bolting) I felt a responsibility to communicate that to others. And I hope than once other people realize that too (if they agree with it, which they may not) then they to would want to also communicate that as well.
I totally respect that someone may not want to tell others what to do. But personally I feel a responsibility to make others understand it's about respecting other climbers, not about protecting the rock which is an inanimate object, and I would hope others would too.
I have studied Environmental Management so I probably put way more thought and analysis into this than most sane people would think is reasonable.
Edit after readings V's post above: I agree that in person discussions are the best thing to do. However I believe that online discussions, sections in the beginnings of guide books, etc. are all good to get the word out, because I think many people won't understand why we should have limits on chipping and bolts.
When I first started climbing I didn't get it. My first exposure was that someone chopped some TR bolts off a trad climb and I was disappointed I couldn't top rope it anymore. My climbing partner/mentor said it was because the trad climbers didn't want the TR climbers on their climb and I thought that was bogus. But later I realized it was about more than that.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 10, 2017 - 11:45pm PT
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Climbing 128, p8
December 1991/January 1992
Editorial
Truth or consequences
Climbers are children at heart. After all, climbing is play - in turns sophisticated and elemental, selfish and giving, innocent and dangerous, but always essentially useless to anyone but ourselves.
As children, one of the primary ways we learn about the world is by making our own mistakes and bad decisions, and suffering the consequences. After a while (usually by the time we're teenagers) we get a pretty good idea of what's acceptable and what's not. We develop a set of moral standards that helps steer us away from behavior that can get us into trouble.
One of the problems that climbers as a group are struggling with right now is that we've reached adolescence without learning the lessons of childhood. We're spoiled. We've been happily playing in the living room, and not caring much about what's going on over in the kitchen. But lately we've been making too much noise. Worse yet, we've started to scribble on the walls and tear up the furniture. And those most directly affected by our actions - administrators of public lands and other people who use those lands - are beginning to think we're too big and too unruly to ignore.
We're going to learn some hard lessons as these groups continue to scrutinize the actions of an increasing population of climbers. They have valid concerns about trail erosion, sanitation, trash, overcrowding, and other impacts on the land that we all share. As unpleasant and unfair as it may sometimes seem to climbers (who are used to doing as they please), land managers and other public land users are going to take us to task when we go too far.
Idaho climber Dave Bingham found that out in September when he was hauled into court, fined, and given a suspended jail sentence and a year's probation for chipping and gluing holds on a route at City of Rocks National Reserve. To my knowledge, it's the first time a climber has been prosecuted for such actions. I don't think it's going to be the last.
Climbers can't expect any sympathy when we choose to step beyond the boundaries of commonly-accepted behavior. Despite the tacit acceptance of chipping, gluing, painting names at the bottom of routes, and other forms of rock alteration by some segments of the climbing community, these practices are rightly viewed as vandalism by land managers, environmental groups, hikers, and, I believe, the vast majority of climbers. As such, _they should be discouraged both by peer pressure and by vigorous, enforcement of existing laws.
I'm not suggesting that we go on a witch hunt, or that we encourage new restrictions on climbers' activities. Indeed, much of what I've heard proposed in recent months, such as banning bolts or otherwise restricting new-route activity in national parks, won't solve the core problem of more people wanting to enjoy a limited resource. Such solutions would also be difficult if not impossible to enforce.
I would submit, however, that it's time we all slowed down and thought a bit more about the consequences of our actions. Route manufacturing may be the wave of the future for some, but it will only bring about more stringent regulation of all forms of climbing. And who among us wants to be told to stay in his room?
 Michael Kennedy
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 11, 2017 - 03:39am PT
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I am with DMT on this one. Either you do or you don't. the private VS Public land has no bearing. Vitaly is correct. the absolute shurest way to get a climbing area closed is to have a fight within the climbing community.
most of us are hypocritical in our dealings with the subject of chipping and bolting. Most of the anti bolt folks that I know are ice climbers who have no qualms about scratching the piss out of the rock with their crampons and killing the trees at the tops of ice climbs by standing on them with crampons. anyone who has pounded a pin has chipped the rock. Anyone who has cleaned a new route and trundeled has altered the rock.. There are no real purests. they are all mostly full of sh#t one way or annother.
All that being said I am 100% against bolt on holds and any obvious manufactured holds. A little heavy handed cleaning on the other hand is a common part of the new route process.... Dulling a sharp rope cutting edge is not a crime it is a responsibility. there is too much gray area to get too worked up over every little infraction of someones supposed rules....
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 11, 2017 - 03:49am PT
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anyone who has pounded a pin has chipped the rock. Anyone who has cleaned a new route and trundeled has altered the rock.. There are no real purests. "
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 11, 2017 - 07:11am PT
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Gnome.....I agree that there are very few purists but that should not be used as an argument that anything goes. Climbers are, for the most part, intelligent enough to deal with nuanced situations where things are not black and white. There is an easily recognizable difference between cleaning off a loose flake and bolting on a hold where none existed.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 11, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
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Keep them in the gym where they belong. It is their natural environment.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Oct 11, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
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Does trundling count as manufacturing?
I turned a loose boulder into a belay ledge using a bottle jack, a scissors jack, a 5 foot prybar, and some wooden wedges.
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