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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 26, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
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And just what is the alternative to the "deception" of immortality?
What doesn't seem to compute here is that everyone feels some deep need for some promise of immortality.
Some idea of immortality has never been been the least compelling for me and I know it is true for a great many others, also.
"There is more under heaven and earth, Horacio, than your philosophy will allow..."
...and I'm not referring to ghosts.
The alternative is being in the present. What we know is we are born, we live and we die. Before and after is just an opinion no matter how passionate we are about our opinions.
Knowing there is a finite run makes what we get richer and sweeter. But, that's just my opinion and a lot of people think I'm effin crazy, especially since I really like Don Juan's model that death is always sitting on your shoulder and can take you at any time and it's our responsibility to be complete in every moment because that may be the last one. Not entirely obtainable, but a very satisfying exercise.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 26, 2017 - 09:22pm PT
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hey there say, MikeL... thank you, kindly...
happy good eve, to all...
got to do lots of work, tonight on projects...
:)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 26, 2017 - 09:46pm PT
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Get over it, become a physicist.
I love it. Great thing to tell a mother whose lost her child. You wonder why there is religion? Because life is tough, often unbearable. And you think taking religion away from humanity will some how make things better? Really? Do you realize the insanity of such a supposition?
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WBraun
climber
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May 26, 2017 - 10:07pm PT
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The gross materialists are always stoopid clueless fools who bring nothing but the slaughterhouse to their own selves and everyone else ....
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 27, 2017 - 04:29am PT
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Don't Tell Me
Corporate terrorists and criminal lawyers
From HMOs to Wall Street
All the way down to Colliers
They're pumping up their profits
Paying later to buy first
With no love for the children
Unprepared for the cloudburst
Oh baby,
It's just black rain
I'm so sorry
I won't see you again
Don't worry
Heaven's not so insane
Praise god
It's all in Jesus's name
Government corruption and corporate vice
Teeming with maggots
And infected with lice
They don't care how the world ends
As long as you pay the price
For casinos and luxury
Take heed to this advice
No one believes
It will happen to them
Perish your lover
Or even your best friend
With a mighty cloudburst
Black rain will descend
See the mushroom cloud
On the road, my friend
Until the hoax appears at your front door
Who knew that climate change
Could be such a bore
See the moss growing
On its icy shores
First goes Antarctica
Then goes one more
Oh baby,
It's just black rain
I'm so sorry
I won't see you again
Don't worry
Heaven's not so insane
Praise god
It's all in Jesus's name
-bushman
05/27/2017
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 27, 2017 - 05:20am PT
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God died in the blood and gore of an ancient battlefield. Honor was replaced by arrogance and stupidity. Climbers have long revered an international community. With our loyalty owed to family and friends, to many of us, nationalism is dead or should have died with the last gasps of the Nazi Third Reich.
I could say that the demise of religion will follow the demise of destructive nationalism, but I am not at war with religion. Nationalism is the new religion of our homeland, and like religion, it is at war with the world. I only hope that we survive it.
-bushman
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c wilmot
climber
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May 27, 2017 - 05:59am PT
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Without an American sense of nationalism there would have been no point in fighting the Japanese or nazis... without nationalism we would still be under British rule
It's bizarre to me how politics is trying to redefine words to fit an increasingly anti American agenda..
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 27, 2017 - 06:09am PT
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I think we will see religion eventually replaced with individual spirituality. Organized religion is also a social glue, a means to communicate local customs and culture, and has become a centralized forum for all sorts of traditional rituals from baptism to marriage to death. While these functions may have been usurped from other fora, the fact remains that humans have found this forum of religion useful as a place to gather and share acknowledgement and rituals of life events. Interestingly, in more traditional cultures we find less concentration of these rituals within religion, and more within the village or tribe, but without a lot of the "G*d" trappings.
Religion is not merely about finding answers to fundamental questions of behavior, but is also a means of establishing levels of coherence — and often justice and balance — in a community. But I doubt if you'd find two people anywhere who agree on all points about "their" religion. We are individuals. We find balance when we acquaint ourselves with our own internal, private spirituality, however we happen to perceive it that day.
If you find a schism between science and spirituality, check your basic premise.
An aside to those with thinking impediments:
A common insult I often use is to brand muddled thinkers as having an IQ lower than their body temperature. When I am really riled, I might say, "Don't try to think, you don't do it well." So if I appear saccharine, it is probably out of kindness for those with IQ lower than their body temperature. I am a member of Mensa and a Director with Intertel. Now then, I will continue to be polite, but all this ad hominem stuff obviously comes from people who aren't thinking well enough to present cogent arguments or comments on the subject at hand.
Because if you are going to discuss the good and bad points of religion, then I think you must begin with what we have been able to garner of its origins, examine its functions in society, and determine its aggregate enhancement and destruction of any perceived or imagined peaceful and just society. Remembering, of course, that there isn't any utopia.
If you want to discuss it as it applies to the individual, then you need to speak in the first person, and admit your subjectivity with respect to to the question at hand. We have both sorts of arguments going on in this discussion.
"Is religion doing more harm than good these days?" raises the questions of, "more harm than good to whom and where?"
And Bushman, as usual, your poetry is spot on. Thank you.
feralfae
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 27, 2017 - 06:20am PT
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Galileo, a devout Catholic, refuted the Aristotelian view of nature which was Church dioctrine. He saw no conflict between being a devout Christian and persuing scientific inquiry which proved prevailing ideas of the nature of the universe to be wrong.....the Inquisition felt otherwise.
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2017 - 06:22am PT
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God died in the blood and gore of an ancient battlefield.
No such thing ever happened, nor will ever happen.
Being brainwashed and in ignorance of what you can't see with your defective material senses is all you know.
Even your own Brother Tobin had more sense than you.
You can't get rid of God.
Try it, the minute you try, you'll end up masquerading yourself as god.
But you will really end up just becoming a stoopid dog ......
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 27, 2017 - 06:44am PT
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Jim, I am smiling. Some of my ancestors escaped Spain in 1500, one step ahead of the Pope's soldiers.
The Inquisition was less about recognition of God or refutation of science and more about using violence to change minds on the subject of religion, a concept which has an outstanding history of failure.
But you are spot-on with respect to Galileo. He was arguing science against an arrogant and powerful bunch of guys who were running a major institution of the religion of Christianity, albeit a very twisted version of Christianity. And since they had no reasonable arguments, they used force. Same old problem.
Werner, yes, I had missed that comment by Bushman. Unless all existence disappears, I don't see any way to get rid of the concept of Creator, Mind of G*d, Headmaster, or whatever name humans care to use.
Thank you.
ff
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 27, 2017 - 06:55am PT
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Christianity is about a guy who had the compassion to uplift other humans. Sadly he did not do well at giving that gift to others.
Shortly thereafter his words were twisted and edited to fit the needs of powerful men.
But what holds it all together is his original intention to help and his honest ability to do so.
That is religion.
People killing or enslaving each other is not religion. It is crime.
FF - Individual spirituality is safe. I think much of the USA has gone that way. But it is difficult for many to come up with their own religion that satifies. So it goes to professional prophets to put it together for us.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 27, 2017 - 07:16am PT
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Werner, FF,
Point taken...
Sometimes I go overboard here with my new found passion for Atheism. Sometimes a word too far. I love my brother but never loved the religion, not since childhood. I also never tried to compare myself to Tobin. But like the Chinese proverb, I am happy in my work.
-bushman
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 27, 2017 - 07:22am PT
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Without an American sense of nationalism there would have been no point in fighting the Japanese or nazis...
Ever heard of the "America First Committee"?
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 27, 2017 - 07:30am PT
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Or was it Colonel Saito the Japanese prison commandant in The Bridge on the River Kwai?
"Be happy in your work!"
Maybe I am a dog. I only know my fever spiked at 102 again last night for the third day in a row. Dr says it's a virus. Running all over from my head to my toes. Ridin' me hard and puttin' me away wet, wait that doesn't sound right...I must be delirious.
^^^^^
Thanks and oops and thanks again.
vvvvvvvv
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 27, 2017 - 07:32am PT
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Christianity is about a guy who had the compassion to uplift other humans. The very definition of liberalism
Liberalism is about a society that has the compassion to uplift other humans.
and doesn't have anything to do with individual spiritualism
spiritualism is about living in the moment, exploring, searching, learning, living your life as best you can, which includes having compassion
Bushman
Sometimes I go overboard here with my new found passion for Atheism. Atheism does provide a new sense of freedom that you should be passionate about. I love your posts... keep up the good work
being an atheist does not mean you are not a spiritual person
if you intentionally cause pain in others, insult, post ugly lies, always a Debbie downer or call people insulting names, then you are spiritually bankupt
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 27, 2017 - 07:43am PT
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Atheism is just the religion of Smugness wrapped in a cloak of condescendion.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 27, 2017 - 07:54am PT
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Now Reilly it's perfectly alright to believe that there is no God. I certainly am among the rapidly growing number of people who believe that all religions are human constructs.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 27, 2017 - 08:13am PT
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Actually, Jesus was pretty specific. I don't think he mentioned lifting up others. As an individual Quaker, I speak only for myself. I am a spiritual anarchist, and eschew all hierarchy with respect to my relationship with Creator. I enjoy the opportunity to discuss the teachings of prophets, but know I am solely responsible for my actions, no matter what.
I do understand that we can manifest compassion and Christian lovingkindness through voluntary actions, rather than through coerced tithing or enforced taxation in the name of "general welfare" as is often cited. I see no place for government in charity or good works, actually.
I am interested in the discussions on this topic, but also know that anyone who has a sense of self-responsibility is going to find their own ethical compass and live their life according to their own sense of integrity and justice. Probably no argument of mine will change their thinking. What I often find bothersome is how people do heinous things and hide behind the shield of some organized, hierarchical religion as their excuse. Yes, organized religion provides many people with their only moral compass. But organized religion has also encouraged people and provided an excuse to pillage and plunder, to steal and murder.
And while Jesus said to feed the hungry, comfort the sick, and provide for the orphans, he also said to sell your cloak and buy a sword. He tossed the money changes in the temple. Let us not turn Him into
some soft-hearted wimp. He had compassion, but I cannot find where he said it was my job to provide for those who were able to provide for themselves, and especially not through some government bureaucracy trying to pretend to be a charity. When someone talks about "lifting up"others, I run away. Because the next sentence is usually about how I need to "sacrifice" to "lift up" someone else, whom the speaker (usually some priest or politician) will identify and then dictate my share of the "sacrifice" to enable that "lifting."
And unfortunately, the words of Jesus have been so terribly mangled and twisted by organized religions trying to ride His coat tails that it is often impossible to find two people who can agree on what was actually said. At various times, humans have done extraordinarily horrid things in the name of Jesus, including mass murder, genocide, sending children off on crusades, and killing innocent women accused of being witches.
So while religion may provide a cookie-cutter set of reasonable directions, it also may provide a cookie-cutter set of depraved directions, all equally offered under the banner of some prophet no longer around to defend His or Her intent.
And I am not going to even try to discuss the horrid marriage of religion to government.
But if I can make one point, it is that while I can find merit in organized religion, I can also find great harm in it. On the other hand, I can find much merit in spiritual self-responsibility, and little to condemn it other than perhaps the possibility of social isolation for those who tend toward a more monastic life in their contemplation or practice of their spiritual Path. And if they are not harming any other human, they have the right to the life they choose, even if it does not suit me.
ff
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 27, 2017 - 08:16am PT
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I get it, Jim.
And, I'm with Reilly in the sense that a lot of atheists like to bludgeon - I mean proselytize- people with their religion.
Atheism is just the religion of Smugness wrapped in a cloak of condescendion.
I really liked that so had to post it again.
Those who love scientism tend to like atheism. Too much worship of reductionism and mechanism without identifying and keeping in mind the limits of the models - mistaking the map for the terrain.
Those who love science and the methods of science tend to like agnosticism.
Seems to me...
Being the weirdo that I am I have my rational and my mystical mind and they have fun teasing and laughing at each other.
God on the battlefield -
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