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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Dec 22, 2006 - 09:55pm PT
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"What is special and different about climbing as compared to any other activity in life?"
You'll NEVER know till you try it!
That was too easy, I couldn't help it.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Dec 22, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
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LEB: "does this obligate me to ski? Does it obligate him to try activities which I am passionate about?"
Sheesh, give it a rest. You're not OBLIGATED to do any of those. In fact, you're free to leave here anytime. To paraphrase Largo: there's too much thinkin', not enough doin' goin' on here.
I look forward to your first trip report, Lois, even if it involves just a walk in the park.
LEB: "If I have learned to be a good "troll" here, it is only because I have stood on the shoulders of some vertiable giants."
Sounds kind of clever, LEB, but what in the world does THAT mean?
See you all next week, no computer access 'til Tuesday.
Feliz Navidad
Wild Bill
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2006 - 10:40pm PT
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Lois
If you want to understand something about climbing, then in your case you need to go climbing, and for one reason: you stated that "you" have no interest or desire to go climbing. Going against our passive "spectator" sides, to which we are identified as "us," as who we are, involves moving outside our comfort zone into places "we" have ruled out of bounds.
Just go once, go out of bounds. That's what self mastery is all about, and that's what climbing is all about: going when "our" minds say no.
The thing is you have an IDEA about all of this and so far have taken the matter up in terms of ideas. A shift out of the merely mental would cause another shift that would address the inflexibility of your mental fixation NOT to do anything diferently and to follow the path that your mind has already decided for you. I'm only asking you to step one half of a foot off that path--and you can scramble back to it in a flash, in mere minutes after roping up. You will not die. Stretch yourself in some way that your mind refuses to do and you do yourself a great favor. In many spiritual disciplines the student must everyday do something he does not want to do. It's essential. It's rut busting and drags us out of smugly accepting that we can direct our own unfolding.
So tie in and report back to us about your experience.
or so I've heard!
;-)
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Dec 22, 2006 - 10:50pm PT
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Of course I am going to suggest you go climbing, LEB--this is a climbing site. It is what people do here. But the climbing is secondary to breaking the habit of having to have all the info, and working out a mental list of justifications BEFORE you do anything. That is being stuck in a mental loop, and to break the loop you have to have direct experience.
The idea is to let experience inform your mind, directly, not the other way around. The later is living in a virtual world of arguments, suppositions, evaluations, and so forth, alll olf which are derived from you conditioned past. For some, so horribly divorced from theeir actual lived experience, a mental substitute evetually gets mistaken for life itself. And that is a shame.
It wouldn´t much m atter what you do so long as the risks are low, you´re with trusted folks and you dive in BEFORE deciding in your mind what the experience should, might, and outta be. That´s living in reverse. Put the mind in neutral, put your ass in gear and boot it, lady. We´re all rooting for the day . . .
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 22, 2006 - 10:51pm PT
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Don't do Lois, don't do it.
Those rascals will ruin you ......... :-)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 23, 2006 - 12:16am PT
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"The reason I "hang out" with you guys is because of your exceedingly high IQs (and on some level, "rowdiness") which make you all extraordinarily interesting people."
FINALLY, someone who appreciates us for our brains!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 23, 2006 - 12:18am PT
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Lois wrote
"But if you look at the fundamental basis of your argument, it is all predicated upon the notion that climbing is a positive and desirable thing for me to do in my life i.e it is something which I "ought" to do."
Not necessarily, it could be like being abducted and sodomized by the Hell's Angels, a relief if you survive!
Take the hint from the Universe Lois. What you resist presists, There must be reason why you fell in with us. Now Giddyup!
;-)
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T-REX
climber
san diego, ca
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Dec 25, 2006 - 04:40pm PT
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Yadda, yadda, yadda...if you want something to give your synapses a workout, than go here http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=298377 , try to get to the bottom of things (which will take a lot more effort than just reviewing the "basic" information I've provided in an attempt to get climbers motivated -- incidentally, why climbers on this forum haven't been motivated to act, or post-up to motivate other climbers, is a question for you to ponder as well).
This should provide you with a bit of a stimulating work, especially since time is short, and since I'll state here and now that you are on your own...I will not be responding to any questions you may have for me. If you have questions, they are yours, YOU must answer them for yourself.
If you choose not to write a letter in opposition, that is, of course, your choice. But do remember your past actions when you are eventually confronted with wanting to engage in your future passions...as for fido, you will have to explain why his bark is no longer allowed in the forest:
"I actually DO go outdoors and hike and swim quite a bit, sometimes on some very steep trails. Two summers ago, I discovered Leiki hiking sticks and bought a pair of them. Now there is just no holding me back when it comes to steep hiking grades. I chained them together and sling them around my neck. Then they are handy for whenever I need them. I also found a way to "cheat" via hooking the dog the center of the chains. If I put a harness on her, that sucker can pull!"
Cheers!
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T-REX
climber
san diego, ca
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Dec 25, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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"You make an excellent point about park area closures for an occasional exotic animal. I think your perspectives are, indeed, quite valid."
Try again. You've obviously done a superficial read...the primary issue has nothing to do with "parks" or an individual "exotic animal"...and as you have not thoroughly done your homework you have no way of knowing whether my perspectives are, "indeed, quite valid."
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T-REX
climber
san diego, ca
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Dec 25, 2006 - 07:44pm PT
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Show us all here you have the intellect you pride yourself of posessing.
Allow me to restate:
"This should provide you with a bit of a stimulating work, especially since time is short, and since I'll state here and now that you are on your own...I will not be responding to any questions you may have for me. If you have questions, they are yours, YOU must answer them for yourself."
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John Moosie
climber
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Dec 26, 2006 - 12:20am PT
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HI Lois,
Think cancer, these new rules pose a threat to human beings being allowed into the wilderness. The rules get kookier and kookier and suddenly, you can't walk your dog outside of official dog parks.
Then think, what can I do? Should I just talk about it here on supertopo or is there something more that I can do?
Perhaps I am wrong, just my understanding.
John
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 26, 2006 - 12:26am PT
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What can we do?
How 'bout we start by shitcanning the entire Endangered Species Act?
It's a law that was passed based on false promises, deception, exagerations, trumped up evidence and out-right lies.
If The American People were told way back in 1972 that the ESA would be used to prohibit Americans from taking a walk on Public Land, it's backers would have been laughed out of Washington on their ass.
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John Moosie
climber
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Dec 26, 2006 - 12:46am PT
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Hi Chaz,
I think it is like most things involving humans, we sure like to muck things up. Lots of things start out with good intent but can get screwed up. The nit pickers and the anal rententive get involved and their voice tends to be louder because, well, they are anal.
Some people like to then say, we should just not do anything. But I think that this is just as bad as doing too much. We need to learn balance. Maybe there should be a slack line practice test for all lawmakers. Teach them some balance.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 26, 2006 - 12:50am PT
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Spotted owls put no one out of work. Greedy, rapacious lumber companies put those men out of work. The closed the mills and processed the lumber in Mexico or Japan. The owls and environmentalists were just handy propaganda for them to use.
Earth First spiking trees to maim mill workers did the environmental movement no favors, either.
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T-REX
climber
san diego, ca
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Dec 26, 2006 - 12:56am PT
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"For me, alas, it shall ever remain a mystery."
I certainly hope not. For a climber "it" should be crystal clear, but for joe-citizen it shouldn't be much less obvious.
Hint:
"Then think, what can I do? Should I just talk about it here on supertopo or is there something more that I can do?"
Verbosity is not the answer LEB...action IS!
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 26, 2006 - 12:56am PT
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Mr Moosie writes:
"Maybe there should be a slack line practice test for all lawmakers. Teach them some balance."
That's great!
What I wouldn't pay to see Dennis Hastert and Ted Kennedy on a slackline.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2006 - 01:44am PT
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LEB wrote "Now, I raise the issue of exactly how these two frogs suddenly appeared on the land. Were they there all along? How come no one ever noticed them before? Given the huge battle, one can't help but wonder if they were not perhaps "planted" there by one of the surrounding land owners. Whatever, the church building is now on indefinite hold and the neighbors are thrilled to death - their wishes suddenly granted all by virtue of the appearance of two (two!) "endanged" frogs who "just happened" to appear there, seemingly totally out of the blue. "
Did your cat tell you that or is this 'your' conspiracy theory? ;-)
Of course, if the neighbors planted the frog they may have screwed themselves cause they won't be able to build, add on, or renovate their own land which will naturally be considered part of the same habitat. They'll have to disclose that liability to anyone they try to sell their land to as well
Still, ya never know what happens by accident or on purpose.
Peace
Karl
PS as for the whole issue, the extremes are rarely the answer. There is no substitute for wisdom and balance.
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John Moosie
climber
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Dec 26, 2006 - 01:48am PT
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Hi Lois,
The whole spotted owl issue is kind of sad. The way I understand it is that it came about because of one greedy man. There was one primary lumber company in the Humboldt region. It owned a considerable amount of forest land. It was originally a family run operation that grew. The family believed in sustanability. They only cut down the number of trees that their property could handle and keep running in perpetuity. This kept their operation relatively small but stable. They were rich in trees.
The family grew old and the children were less interested in logging. Along came a man who didn't care about sustainability. He was wealthy and wanted more. He offered a huge sum for the operation. The kids sold out and this man then started cutting down the trees at an unsustainable rate. It created a boom which drew in more loggers. The company owned one last stand of old growth lumber. A truly beautiful forest. This greedy man wanted to clear cut it. It was not government property. It was private property. He could have cared less about sustainbility, he only cared about making a buck right now. The tree huggers had predicted the collapse of the lumber industry in that area because of the new policy. They wanted to protect the old grow forest.
They tried to buy the forest but the man wasn't selling. He wanted ten times the original value of the property. He did not care if his practices were ruining the forest and would eventually lead to ruin for the lumber company. He saw a way to make a quick buck. After years of fighting, along came the spotted owl.
The tree huggers used it to force the man to sell them some of the old growth forest. The man used this as his excuse for why the lumber industry failed when in truth it was his practices that created the failure. Basic human greed.....
Sort of abreviated version, lots of drama left out including a bombing of one tree hugger.
End story.
Lois, I am writing my senators. I want to express to them my concern over the direction enviromental protection laws are heading. I will make it as clear as I can that I wish to protect the enviroment while allowing humans access at sane levels.
Hahaha...try to figure out sane levels.
Hahahaha.... I just saw karl's post. So, it finally comes out, Lois believes in conspiracy theorys. This is too funny.
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T-REX
climber
san diego, ca
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Dec 26, 2006 - 02:15am PT
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"Yes, but as a one who would appear to be serving as a leader in this particular cause, it would behoove you to point out the way to action"
LEB, please go back and check my original post to you on this thread...follow the links...it's a letter writing campaign to maintain access to your public recreation lands...instructions are provided (as well as plenty of details and additional links for people to research the main topic, ad nauseam if desired)...good luck!
Cheers...I'm out of here for a few days...will check back soon!
Jeff
p.s. Orrrrrrrr, you can follow the easy path:
Go directly to Josh's original post and write two letters per the instructions provided...you will find it here http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=297228&tn=0
Though I would encourage you to please read the entire forum on Josh's post before writing your letters...doing so will shed significant light on the subject topic, as well as simplify the instructions for writing the letters that Josh's post identifies...not that long of a forum yet so it shouldn't take very long at all.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 26, 2006 - 02:52am PT
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LEB wrote
"He brought a hard hat for me to wear. I wonder if it was my "intelligent" questions which caused him to take an interest in me or was it, instead, the fact that I was a young, single and (then) quite attractive "party crasher" admist a group of elderly senior citizens. I do hope it was my "intelligent" questions. "
Let me take the liberty of speaking of my gender when I tell you that this theory is much more preposterous than the last one you proposed. The hot babe gets a lot of dam attention.
T-Rex wrote
"....LEB, please go back and check my original post to you on this thread...follow the links...... Orrrrrrrr, you can follow the easy path:
Go directly to Josh's original post and write two letters per the instructions provided...link..Though I would encourage you to please read the entire forum on Josh's post before writing your letters..."
Smirk....I'm sure Lois will be happy to back and read everything you suggested, carefully and without distractions. Why didn't anyone think of suggesting she do such a thing in previous discussions!
Moosie, hey Bro, thanks for taking the time to type that story. You've developed some serious keyboard chops these days from wasting too much time on the net!
Merry Christmas for 8 more minutes but only for us on the left coast.
Peace
Karl
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