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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 11:13am PT
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DMT-
There is much more water on Mars than could ever be utilized by mankind in thousands of years; it's in the form of permafrost and not so much in the polar caps. There is undoubtedly some subsurface water as well. Not a lot of water is consumed in the synthesis of methane from carbon dioxide and water; a byproduct of water electrolysis is oxygen, useful for breathing.
Europa, the 2nd Galilean moon of Jupiter has more water than is on the Earth. There are other proposals to bring even more water from the Kuiper belt in the form of "iceteroids," and before much habitation occurs on Mars, impact them on the planet. Also, the comment posted elsewhere about the soil of Mars having "too many perchlorates," that's simply based on a small representative sample at one site. This was the result from the Viking landers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 30, 2016 - 11:23am PT
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This was the result from Viking landers
Perchlorates are reactive chemicals first detected in arctic Martian soil by NASA's Phoenix lander that plopped down on Mars over five years ago in May 2008.
It is likely both of NASA's Viking Mars landers in 1976 measured signatures of perchlorates, in the form of chlorinated hydrocarbons. Other U.S. Mars robots — the Sojourner, Spirit and Opportunity — detected elemental chlorine. Moreover, orbital measurements taken by the Mars Odyssey spacecraft show that chlorine is globally distributed.
And more recently, NASA's Curiosity rover found perchlorates within Gale Crater, where it landed in August 2012.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 30, 2016 - 11:28am PT
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I'm all for space flight and exploration, but what's the point and rationale for manned settlements on the Moon or Mars? There are no economic or scientific rationales I can come up with compared to robotic alternatives other than various forms of [highly nationalistic] dick swinging.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 30, 2016 - 11:33am PT
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I guess one man's "dick swinging" is another's simple adventure and achievement?
Perhaps not unlike bagging a peak or accomplishing an FA?
What's the alternative? that awaits us? Sweet VR for everybody in tiny little low impact cubicles where all of our fondest dreams come true?
It is interesting how we all choose to frame these things.
Based on our innate and inherited sensibilities, I guess.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 30, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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How about basic exploration and discovery as a primary motivator? also basic growth and development, either in terms of (long-term) civilization or (long term) cultural evolution, however you prefer? these have been mentioned before but a few of you, with all due respect, seem to downplay them. In my view, they are basic and significant as factors in the mix for getting out there.
Why now? We have to start some time. Why not now while the going is good. By many measures we are in an ecological boom phase presently, 100 years from now this might not be so. Strike while the iron's hot.
Don't get me wrong. Just because I'm a space cowboy, I don't expect everybody to be. I'm happy with the current numbers. They are what they are. I'm just grateful some few per cent others out there feel and think as I do. I could imagine worse. In terms of human interest or in terms of times and conditions. The world's cultures and peoples have contributed a great deal to human civilization (else human cultural evo) in the last 100 years. So net-weighed, I've really got no complaints. It's certainly been good for me. I'm grateful to have been born and raised in the 20th-21st when it could've been some other time, eg, the age of the pharaohs.
Reasons military or nationalistic do not make my list of motives at all.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 30, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
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It should also be noted that had we decided to invade Mars instead of Afghanistan and Iraq we might already be there at a fraction of the cost of those wars and with considerably fewer lives lost. Maybe that's the deal, Musk needs to promote it as an invasion - you know, like head off the very, very, very dangerous existential threat Mars poses. What threat? I don't know myself of course, but on twitter I recently read a credible and detailed...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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Back to my ranching background and knowledge of water rights/water laws. In general, water rights obtain by the first appropriator and he who makes beneficial use thereof! That said, more blood has been spilled over water in the U.S. West than any other dispute.
Anybody here have an estimate of how much water is used (wasted!) flushing toilets daily in just LA? Probably a LOT more than would be consumed in making methane rocket fuel on Mars?
Mars was once a wet and warm planet, but lacks any significant magnetosphere to deflect the ravages of the Solar wind, which removed the early atmosphere. Loss of the bulk of it's atmospheric gases led to freezing out of all water into permafrost and/or polar icecaps. The water is "there for the taking," which rubs DMT the wrong way. But his views are simply an extension of Malthusian economic theory of scarcity, by saying the resources must be scarce, so they must be , somehow, rationed out/conserved. Expansion into the outer Solar system will once and for all lay that perverse and pessimistic viewpoint to rest. Malthusian economic principles are really the cause of warfare--fighting over "scarce resources."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 30, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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That's what the Europeans said to the Americans.
fixed that for you...
Expansion into the outer Solar system
That's somewhat aggressively optimistic given we haven't expanded beyond low earth orbit so far.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2016 - 07:19pm PT
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You are neglecting the 12 men who have walked on the Moon!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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“Elephants, they’re like computers. They have the biggest memories. They remember everything. But they have no imagination. That’s what’s special about being human.”
Shirom Peres
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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In general, water rights obtain by the first appropriator and he who makes beneficial use thereof!
of course, this needs to be quantified... as a rancher in the Great Plains, you are no doubt aware that the total mass of beef grown there by "modern" ranching methods is roughly equivalent to the total mass of bison who grew there in the pre-Colombian period. One might say that the post-Colombian period initiated the period of "beneficial use" but that would have to be squared with the apparent efficacy of the pre-Colombian management of the same range.
The definition of "beneficial use" is not rigorous, and can lead to a false justification of means to an end. This economic philosophy is attributed to Locke, and was used in the appropriation of lands during the US western expansion. Interestingly this idea of "making beneficial use" for some relatively short period conveys to the laborer the absolute ownership rights, at least in our modern extension of it.
We would do well to rethink this particular philosophy of property rights, especially if we are to assume the mantle of an enlightened, spacefaring nation.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Boise, ID
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I lean towards O'Neil's idea of putting a structure at L5. Go from there.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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So I just watched for second time the JFK speech posted by Ed. To watch it in full is really something. Talk about... Inspiring. It really captures it ... The spirit ... Wow!
Such a breath of fresh air after a week of trump.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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You are neglecting the 12 men who have walked on the Moon!
I wasn't talking about day-tripping, but rather space we actually have 'expanded' to.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2016 - 08:45pm PT
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The Kennedy speech was quite inspiring, and he had the appropriate driving force readily at hand in the guise of Wernher von Braun. Elon Musk isn't the inspirational speaker in the same manner as a Kennedy, but the ideas alone resonate with many in the aerospace community. His ideas may seem a bit too grandiose to some, but it's always a good idea to "aim high." I personally am a bit more stepwise-methodical, seeing possibly an intermediate vehicle crewed by maybe between 7 and 12 to do lots of "on the ground" preliminary work. It could also serve as a "proof of concept," by involving use of the new Raptor methane/LOX engines and embodying orbital fuel transfers. What makes the concept at all within bounds of reality/affordability is the concept of reusability.
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jstan
climber
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I just can't understand why are you so concerned about taking something that belongs to nobody.
We all are familiar with the law preventing users of water from upstream locations, from cutting off downstream users. Since the outlet to aquifers are not known, I think those tapping an aquifer cannot consider they own the aquifer in its entirety. In line with this, I understand in some locations, land owners may not drill wells on their property.
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