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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jul 14, 2016 - 06:45am PT
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Philis for the win.
BAd
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 14, 2016 - 07:50am PT
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Has anyone invented a stick for placing cams?
Apparently, if you believe http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1284496/Trad-climbing-stick-clip-the-TRICK-CLIP.
.........................................
The difficulty in sport climbing is real, and is the entire point. Everything else is artificial. The idea that you are leading something in any real sense is bogus. Someone either rapped down or aided up and placed all the protection points. Even the draws are often already in place. It's a via ferrata without cables between the anchor points.
That top rope and/or those hooks and intermediate rivets are permanent background features of the ascent, so what you are doing is exciting top-roping, or something quite a bit easier and possibly less risky than exciting top-roping if the wall overhangs a lot. You aren't replacing leading with stick clipping because you were never really leading to begin with.
Not that there's anything wrong with that, but geez, get a grip, it isn't trad climbing and it isn't supposed to be trad climbing. It is a performance-oriented activity whose goal is an eventually perfect execution of an extremely difficult task. How you got to that moment of perfection simply doesn't matter.
No one asks how an Olympic gymnast learned her routines. No one complains that she broke the routine into parts and worked them separately, was spotted, used an overhead mechanic, used boxes, ladders, counterweights, bungies, trampolines, or swimming pools. The routine on meet day is what counts, and the difficulty level is high enough that in spite of all the "cheats" used to learn it, success is not guaranteed.
That's sport climbing as well. Celebrate it for what it is, and grab a rack and head up a steep face climb where you can't tell ahead of time where a single placement will go or whether it will be possible to get one in at all if you want the pleasures and challenges of an environment that hasn't been pre-equipped.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Jul 14, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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It seem to me it won't be long until we read about the first stick clip lead accidents. Nose piercing, prostatectomy, impaling your belayer, seems like there are lots of potential things that could go wrong. Are you more or less likely to back clip if you use a stick?
I can hear a Monte Python voice saying "You'll put an eye out!"
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 14, 2016 - 10:44am PT
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About eight years ago I climbed the NW Face of HD with Brad Mcmillon. The evening before the climb we arrived at the base to find three climbers fixing ropes on a Jay Smith route just to the right.
The next morning we started our climb before they were up. We climbed the route in 11 hours and arrived back at camp to find them only a pitch and a half higher and still fixing ropes.
Rather than go back to a very hot Camp 4 we decided to spend the night by the spring and settled bacl to watch the show.
The leader proceeded to use a very long stick clip to place an aid cam in a crack quite a bit above his head. He had a very long etrier attached to the cam. After some time he got what must have been a semi blind placement to his satisfaction. The rope thru the cam was now eight or more feet above his head. He weighted the etrier and, you guessed it, the cam pulled and a blood curdling yell accompanied his twenty plus foot whipper.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 14, 2016 - 11:13am PT
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...the cam pulled and a blood curdling yell accompanied his twenty plus foot whipper.
Yes indeed. There's always somebody inferior to us by our own estimation, and it's always so viscerally satisfying to "enjoy the show" of their inferiority.
Improving one's skills is primarily about getting better than a larger and larger set of those increasingly inferior to us, so that there are more and more "stages" upon which we can enjoy their "shows."
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 14, 2016 - 12:31pm PT
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Interesting story donini but I know of 3 or maybe 4 rap bolted routes in the gorge / smith that have a high first bolt. Maybe that guy was just living his adventure why you gotta judge man.
Stick clips are like guns. Either useful everywhere without question or GDavis is comin to git em!
:3
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Jul 14, 2016 - 07:16pm PT
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Some routes at Skaha have been set up for 1st bolt stick clips on purpose because of some loose rock at the start. Sometimes this the best way to go
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 14, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
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Get a life madbolter. I relate a factual story relevant to the thread and you say I think they are inferior to me.....just the facts ma'am just the facts.
In fact , they were certainly better aid climbers than me as I avoid that facet of climbing, that seems so near and dear to you, as much as possible.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 14, 2016 - 09:05pm PT
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you say I think they are inferior to me
Ohhh, Jim. Pretty testy (not like testicles).
It's pretty clear what you said. Now don't deny it. Just own it. We all slip into smugness now and then. We'll forgive you.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Jul 19, 2016 - 11:09am PT
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Even the Salmon are stick clipping now!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
Sport fishing is neither!!!!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
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Ban, STICK CLIPS!
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 19, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
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You inferred something in Donini's story that wasn't there Mad. That is the issue with stick clipping combined with aid or hang dogging, if you reach way up and stick that tiny wire sticking out of the rock, if it chooses to pull or break at the wrong time because it didn't yoink out when you tested it down low but waited till you were eyeballing it flapping yer arms won't get you to flying...LOL.
Madbolter quote: "
Yes indeed. There's always somebody inferior to us by our own estimation, and it's always so viscerally satisfying to "enjoy the show" of their inferiority.
Improving one's skills is primarily about getting better than a larger and larger set of those increasingly inferior to us, so that there are more and more "stages" upon which we can enjoy their "shows.""
BTW, it must have been a good show, but note also that Donini and partner would have been in great position to assist an accident. Meantime, they are resting up in one of the most stellar spots in the valley so as to be less likely to tweak a tendon on the descent. They'd already gotten a high mileage day and probably could use the rest as opposed to tripping on the death slabs due to being tired. Little things like that are why Donini and people like him have long healthy careers in this game doing outrageous things successfully over a long time span.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 19, 2016 - 02:42pm PT
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One day a few of us decided to walk out to Hammer Dome (at the Meadows). It's been a while, but I know McCollum and Waugh were among our party. Jan had a hard on to do Mystery Achievement. I was skeptical due to the grade but it turned out to have a wicked hard start followed by easier climbing, so we got the job done.
Anyway there were some French climbers stick clipping their way up one of the stiff enduro .11s to the right (probably harder than the one we did despite grading). I had never seen anything like it. In the mid '90's this was a true disgrace, not that it isn't today but you know what I mean.
When they were done Waugh cruised the thing clipping every other bolt.
Edit: Is that called setting the stage?
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couchmaster
climber
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Jul 19, 2016 - 02:46pm PT
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I know a couple of real good slab climbers who took a stick clip up on Deuces Autobahn Half Dome route back in the late 80s or early 90s. Those 1/4" bolts weren't close at all and they were damned happy to have it as it turned out. I'd never heard of such a thing and thought it was brilliant.
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 19, 2016 - 03:03pm PT
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With all this talk about ethics, I think I need to make an admission here.
Once, about 20 years ago I did a certain climb at Suicide (5.11). It was righteously hard, fell down low, then figured it out and got to where I had to go left to another crack. I couldn't put in a cam into the higher crack without letting go with my left hand, and, I admit it - I was having difficulty, and then - I did it . . .
I hooked my chin on a little ledgy thing. I swear it was only for a little bit, after placing the pro I was able to use my hands to jam into the higher crack and swung up into the last twenty feet.
I must admit, I've claimed I did that climb ever since, and each time, a little guilty conscience digs into my back and makes me wince.
It really feels good to admit it openly.
I do plan to go back and do it clean, but my conundrum is I have since grown a little barba on my chin. Will it be cheating if I have to repeat that move again?
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jul 19, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
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mcreel,
climber Barcelona, Jul 14, 2016 - 10:12am PT
It seem to me it won't be long until we read about the first stick clip lead accidents....
There was a fatality last year in the Owens River Gorge. There was a bolt failure when a climber was bolt to bolt 'Linking' -aiding bolt to bolt - His plan had been to set up a top rope for TR solo climbing,. . . (rip, Corey? . Anyone remember? I'll try to find the link)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 19, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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I'd never heard of such a thing and thought it was brilliant.
Methinks that is a different situation than a sport climb with a 3/8" bolt every body length or so. Sounds like a good idea - I probably wouldn't have thought of it at the time.
George, I used my chin once at the gunks. It's a body part. No foul. :-)
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Jul 19, 2016 - 08:45pm PT
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Hah! I followed my buddy up the gently overhanging 11 corner on the North Face of Lover's Leap, which went fine, but the overhangs on the next pitch did me in. I did, for a moment, hook my chin on a dyke. Too painful. But I did try it.
BAd
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 19, 2016 - 09:07pm PT
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Too painful. But I did try it.
At the Gunks you'll find these nice one or two inch horizontal edges which are ideally suited for a chin hook while shaking out your blasted forearms.
:-)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 19, 2016 - 09:14pm PT
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You inferred something in Donini's story that wasn't there Mad.
Maybe. I don't think so. My "take" wasn't wrong.
I showed the quote to a few others, and they instantly got the same thing I did:
"Wow, we were so much faster than those incompetents. That's why we had time to watch their clusterfvk struggle."
"Their clusterfvk still couldn't effectively advance them up the route. BAD style!"
"The scream showed how out of their effective depth they really were. It is to laugh."
Whatever.
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