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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Here's another piece with some history. Mike Layton retrieved this original Ablakov cam on the second ascent of the Soviet route on the North Face of Inspiration, in the Cascades. Ablakov et. al. did it with Alex Bertulis back in 1977. As Mike pointed out he was 4 months old when this piece was placed.
edit: Looking at the picture, I remembered there was some dispute involving tri-cams, but this is not intended as any sort of poke at Jeff, just another photo of old gear.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Hey healy,
you didn't quote rgold entirely. In particular, you left out this little bit:
"Such developments are inevitable, and I think traditionalists who are unable to appreciate the fantastic achievements in these new arenas probably need some more Geritol and Viagra."
If the shoe fits...?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Such developments are inevitable, and I think traditionalists who are unable to appreciate the fantastic achievements in these new arenas probably need some more Geritol and Viagra."
Caught,
I started climbing doing steep TR's because we wouldn't bolt. We put up some .12's at the time and some would say at least one .13a back in '76 ( as many other folks elsewhere ) so you might say I started out a sport climber way before it was fashionable. In fact, on steep overhangs and roofs I have far more admiration for deep water soloists and folks on TR's than I do sport climbers. There's no dogging on really steep terrain when bouldering, deep water soloing, or on a long TR - you have to think or fly.
That 'no dogging' mantra more than anything defines what climbing is all about for me whether on lead, TR, roped or free solo. I personally don't think bolts were the big defining sea change in climbing - the wide-spread adoption of dogging was. It's not the bolts that define sport climbing - it's the dogging. I started climbing in a place with no cracks and no face climbing - every route was a puzzle of pockets and ribs by definition - just seeing lines was a challenge. 'Thinking about and figuring lines out on the fly' was what has always interested me about climbing. The whole idea of knowing anything upfront or dogging to [statically] 'de-puzzle' a route blows the whole concept and point of the game I like to play.
And I've always considered dogging up routes just 'aerial bouldering' - you're bringing the ground up with you to every bolt you dog on and you're just doing a vertical series of boulder problems - a big yawn at best. I like flying through the air having had my fingers ripped off the rock just as I thought I had a move figured out. I personally have always considered dogging as a tactic a complete affront to the soul of what steep stone really has to offer when operating with no possibility of just hanging in space and figuring it out as you go.
Oh, I understand what has been gained from dogging just fine - I simply have no interest in that approach and lament the amount of pristine stone that gets churned each year to keep sport climbers entertained. It really is a sustainability issue as far as I'm concerned. And to be honest, we're fast hitting the wall of our design limits of difficulty where a route has to be projected in some form or another regardless of whether it is bolted, pre-protected, cleaned, and spradded after being headpointed or otherwise rehearsed to death. My bottom line is difficulty for difficulty's sake alone is beyond boring. I've done and do difficult things, but that difficulty is a completely random consideration way, way behind a line just grabbing me because there is something so damn 'peculiar' or otherwise intriguing about it.
And yeah, yeah, I've heard all the '5.10 is as hard as it will get' quips. But if you check with a bunch of us old dads I don't think any of the smart ones ever thought we were doing more than scratching the surface in terms of pure difficulty - I know I didn't. And just like no one is going to be running a two minute mile or swimming 10 knots we are approaching the limits of difficulty in somewhat the same way we see in those other sports - victories by 10ths and 100ths of a second. Exploring such finite realms for their own sake holds no real interest for me at all. So, did I think it was great Tommy and Beth freed the Nose a couple of times after projecting it for a month? You bet, but it also gave me all the more appreciation and respect for Lynn and Brooke's accomplishments in retrospect.
In a nutshell, my gripe with sport climbing is the crowds, the cost in rock, that it's usually more about the 'developer' and his 'service' than folks being utterly inspired, obssesed, and maximizing the FA experience every line offers. That, and the fact that the whole point of it is essentially the complete opposite of everything I find interesting about climbing. I'll sport climb and go to the gym to try and stay in shape when there is no other option, but that's really where my interest ends.
And the demographics suck too. Back in the day a Henry Barber emerged from from a relatively small pool of basically competent climbers allowing for a sort of a 'ratio of competence'. Say Henry emerged from a background ratio of 1:2000 basically competent climbers - well, today a Tommy probably emerges from more like a 1:200,000 ratio of folks most of whom have never placed a piece of gear and who, as a collecive whole has a relatively low competence ratio. So, again, great things emerge from today's scene, but at a high price paid when you factor in the cost in stone and access to entertain such a large 'pool' of risk-averse climbers.
But hey, I was considered to have a pretty odd and extreme take on it all back in the day (I fought against chalk, too) and it's only gotten more misanthropic since, but it still all works for me and I'm too damn old to change now...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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My quote notwithstanding, I think Healyje makes very telling points. While not backing off my statement of admiration of the positive advances in sport climbing, there is no question that it has brought with it unfortunate trends.
It is trad climbing that has suffered. I've seen a lot of changes in my near fifty years of climbing, from soft iron to chrome-molly to nuts to cams and sticky rubber, but nothing I've seen compares to the the effects of dogging on the nature of traditional climbs. The near-universal acceptance of dogging techniques, however appropriate they are to sport climbing, has infected trad climbing, eliminating in many cases the "problem-solving on the fly" aspect and degrading the "mini-wilderness" content---the advancing into unknown territory---that used to be central but is now increasingly peripheral.
I'm reminded of Stannard's paradigm-shifting (ground up, of course) attempts on Foops in the late sixties, in which he fell from the lip time and again because he was missing a hold not quite in the line of a very pressured sight. Years went by until Henry Barber made the second ascent, after a winter of training in his basement on a "Foops machine," an extremely primitive precursor of the climbing wall.
The modern trad-dogger would sort all this out on the first try. Climbs like this used to have an aura about them, a seriousness, that has been completely destroyed. The sense of dread, the need for preparation, the feeling of a big undertaking, all are gone. (And so perhaps the people who value such things are a vanishing breed.) You hang on the pro, get totally rested, figure out what to do next, and then string everything together on the redpoint. The route is thereby reduced to little more than the difficulty of its moves (which is the point in sport climbing, which has pushed that difficulty to fantastic new levels). The psychic baggage of the route is gone. I think everyone loses from this; many trad climbs on crags have become so much "smaller" than they used to be.
I am well aware that an older generation has voiced laments like this almost from the beginnings of crag climbing in Victorian England. It isn't out of a sense of sour grapes (I coulda done this or that if I had allowed myself such practices) that I find myself echoing the same themes. Just as I value the preservation of our crags in as natural a state as possible, I value the kinds of experiences I feel priviledged to have enjoyed, and I'm saddened that these are increasingly unavailable to subsequent generations. In many cases, such experiences are nearly unattainable now in the places I used to frequent, because even if a climber decides, on a personal level, to deny themselves the benefits that dogging confers, they must do so in an environment that neither supports nor understands their efforts. The psychic baggage I referred to has a significant communal component that cannot be recovered by an individual on what now seems more and more like an idiosyncratic a personal journey.
On the other hand, it is important to recognize that the increases in sheer ability brought on by sport climbing means that there is there will be climbers who are far better at the trad climbing game, performed in its traditional way, then the older generation ever was. This too has always been true; the climbers who profit from the "transgressions" the previous generation perceives go on to surpass their elders at their own game too.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Absolutely agree with you RGold. I can remember climbing entire seasons in Yosemite without ever hanging on protection or falling. That's just the way things were done back in the day. I suspect that the reason us old guys could and would run out things is that we almost never hung on to gear for rest and developed the good lead head that goes with this type of attitude.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Off White,
not to worry. Jeff just left here 20 minutes ago. He's not the least concerned of him (or more importantly Greg) not getting credit for innovation.
Abalokov was a very creative guy. That's a cool looking early tricam. The ones that Greg let me try in '75 were also a bit different than todays units but all three types operate in the same manner.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Well put, goldstone & Greg.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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help, the sky is falling! The fun, camraderi (sic) and adventure are all gone.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"help, the sky is falling! The fun, camraderi (sic) and adventure are all gone. "
I don't believe I said that. If anything it looks like there's certainly a lot of comraderi going on as when I do venture into a sport crag it's clear [sport] climbing and bouldering are far more social activities than in years past. In fact it looks to be far more of a group than indiviual activity for most folks. One could almost get the impression folks don't just venture out on their own in ones and twos all that often any more.
But I'm certainly having a good time and climb at a fairly adventurous [trad] crag that has fewer climbers because it is trad. But the sky doesn't fall, more like its constantly rushing away all the time. But that's not to say there isn't constant access issues due to the very large numbers involved with climbing today. Laurel Knob is opening under stringent management, a private crag in TN just shut down, skytop and foops are closed, etc., etc. It's all in the sheer numbers and those raw numbers are wholly driven by gyms, sport climbing, and bolts.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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be part of the solution then. quit.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Adventure isn't lost in climbing. I called bullshit on this and seeing some of these older climbers blaming "sport climbing" for the lost of it as a weak and a lazy red flag.
There are thousands of cliffs and millions of routes waiting to be done in ANY style.
Go do them.
Joe...you constant hammering of sport climbers and their lack of sack is getting fecking old. How many x-rated routes have you established?? I don't know of too many x-rated routes established by way of top-rope.
And just what makes you think just because you climb a certain way...that other others should do the same? Why is hanging on a piece of protection so bad?? If someone else hangs on it why do you think your better because you don't?
The sport has changed (and that's all it is) I enjoy all aspects of sport and will continue to do so. As to climber traffic...I am glad that people are outdoors and using these resoucres on OUR public lands. The impact of climbers is quite small compare to logging, mining, housing, population, pollution...etc
Go to place like Shelf Rd and see some positive impact that climbers have made. It a pretty well thought out area with beautiful camping, nice bathrooms and trails. The BLM has been quite active and has used input from climbers to make most of their decisions. On any given weekend you might see a hundred climbers enjoying this resource...what is so horrible about that??
If you don't think sport climbers have any sack...follow Chris Sharma, Tommy Caldwell, Ron Kauk or Hubers brothers around for a day.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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"But the sky doesn't fall, more like its constantly rushing away all the time."
Thats just old age Joe. I agree with Bob. Climbings as cool as it ever was.
I used to think gyms and bolts would ruin it too. Now I am more afraid of the management you propose for climbing areas.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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With what I see happening to classic soft rock routes I'm not as worried of management to promote safety as I am of lack of management to preserve resources.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Ron, do you really think the managers would stop at just preservation? Climbing and regulation should be avoided, like church and state. If you allowed someone (or some entity) to tell you what you can and cant do, where would it end? Shouldnt decisions be made by the local climbing community and ourselves each time we tie in?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I'm afraid not Atch.
Most value what they take away more than what they leave.
Wish it was otherwise, but it isn't.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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"Adventure isn't lost in climbing. I called bullshit on this and seeing some of these older climbers blaming "sport climbing" for the lost of it as a weak and lazy red flag.
There are thousands of cliffs and millions of routes waiting to be done in ANY style."
True enough, Bob, but my geezerly point was not about an absolute loss of adventure so much as a significant dilution of it in popular cragging areas. You are saying there's plenty of adventure to be had by going to unclimbed crags, I am saying that the level of adventure that used to be available on already established routes has diminished, in some cases significantly.
"...just what makes you think just because you climb a certain way...that other others should do the same?"
I don't think you were addressing me here, but my response is that I don't think that at all. I think sport climbing is cool, I am absolutely positive that I would have devoted much of my energy to it if it existed when I was young and strong, and I have no particular illusions about the old folks being bolder back in the day than the young 'uns.
But, as I said before, I am sorry that techniques that make perfect sense in the sport arena have been transplanted to trad climbing. Moreover, that regret is not about sport climbing or sport climbers being "bad" in any sense, it is about the loss to generations to come of an experience I enjoyed.
"I enjoy all aspects of sport and will continue to do so. As to climber traffic...I am glad that people are outdoors and using these resoucres on OUR public lands."
I applaud your public-spiritedness, and I aspire, so far without much success, to be as sanquine as you seem to be. But the honest truth is that I hate the crowds and wish they would go away. I wish I didn't have to queue up for popular routes. I wish I didn't have to feel like I need to race other parties to the start of climbs. I wish people would stop dropping rocks, gear, and rappel ropes on my head. I wish top-ropers wouldn't leave their ropes on the first pitch and invite everyone who happens along to take a burn. I wish I didn't have to run the gauntlet of scores of snarling dogs abandoned at the base. I wish I could vaporize slow incompetent parties ahead of me. I wish I could screw up in peace without worrying about holding up parties behind me. I wish I didn't have to listen to idiotic conversations shouted at top volume. And that's just the beginning of the wish list. I understand that "climbing has changed," and, the wish list notwithstanding, I continue to enjoy what it has become. But still---none of this bothers you even a little?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Richard...adventure in the Gunks die many years ago.
Falling on fixed peice of gear (piton, bolt or nut) just didn't start 10 years ago. We just weren't smart enough to hang and figure the move out from that fixed piece. Just because you, joe or I have put our balls on the chopping block...doesn't mean others have too.
You climb in one of the populated areas in the country. Come visit me out hear in NM...climbers are few and the rocks are many. I'll take you to a desert tower or a weekday in the Black or we can go to Questa Dome or the Sandias and maybe...just maybe we will see a handful of other climbers.
I'm just over this sport climbing bashing. It's fun, it safe and you get to do a sh#t load of routes...how horrible! A lot of the routes have beautiful movement and it's quite exicting to excute the moves in a flowing manner!
Richard...the US population has increase by 100 million people since the late 60's...it only makes sense that the climbing population would grow too.
Hope all is well with you and the family and see you in NM this summer.
Later, Bob
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Bob, thanks for the invitation. I'll have to see what can be arranged...
It occurs to me that perhaps our differences on this issue, which are not actually very substantial, might be entirely an artifact of the population densities of our environments.
New York had 402 people per square mile in 2000, New Mexico had 15.
Cheers,
Richard
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jstan
climber
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Each area and for that matter each group of people is different so it is hard to generalize. But it can be useful to look at basic trends, In the early 70’s I published a look at governmental recreation statistics along with census data. At the time it appeared US population would stabilize somewhere just above 200 million, so it seemed the growth in usage we were seeing would not continue indefinitely. As we all know we are now at 300 million and counting. Increasing population density in climbing areas would logically be expected to cause a Darwinian selection for those who also seek a group social environment in their climbing, almost by necessity. Indeed we were even then seeing substantial increases in the number of top roping events wherein ten or twelve people would spend half a day or more on the first pitch of a few selected climbs. This came before the rise of climbing gyms and one may ask if this desire to have climbing also be a group social experience may ultimately have been what made the gyms financially viable. However the chicken/egg question is answered, the fact remains the gyms are now acting to feed significant numbers of people into the outdoors who have a narrowly conditioned prior experience. Until the census data begins to stabilize we may expect everyone’s preferred form of climbing will in turn be swamped by the realities. In time, present day sport climbers will, in their own turn, complain that new people don’t seek what they sought and are impinging upon it. Economic trends of course will also play a role in determining what fraction of the increasing population can afford to spend a day climbing. How this will play out can only be guessed at, but right now it at least appears the economy is going to become a larger factor than it is at present. In summary, during times of rapid change those who like what they presently have, will not be entirely happy. However the flip side of that coin is, if we do not now find a way to civilize this process, all shall fall under that same heel.
With population increasing everywhere the heavily traveled areas may be seen as only further advanced along the curve to be followed by all areas. The climbing environment changes directly as climbers cause it to change. It seems to this observer that only two features of the "old" climbing are escaping change.
1. the concept of a route
As I remember it, Whymper had to find a way to get up the Matterhorn before commercial guides in the area "did" it. There was great argument as to the best way and this then developed into the idea of a "route". Older and/or wiser heads should feel free to correct this observer. This idea, now 141 years old, is still applied to getting to the top of anything even when neighboring "routes" are sometimes only six inches away. If you arbitrarily try to make the route idea still make sense by insisting no two routes be closer than six feet apart, you see the concept makes very inefficient use of the square footage of rock we have available in many areas. Only based upon efficiency, we need to find an alternative to this quite outdated concept.
2. the quantification of difficulty
As has been well pointed out many times over the past 30 years, true difficulty varies greatly depending upon the practices and tools a person uses in their climbing. Sufficiently widely that a thinking person would merely have ceased to believe difficulty merits being quantified at all. Now if we continue to accord such status to difficulty while at the same time we exalt the social element in climbing, what may we infer? If it is a competitive social milieu then we should have races up two equivalent routes in all areas, not just at public competitions, and the winner’s chalk bag should be upended on their heads so they will be marked as winner for the day at least. Such would have the salutary effect of making victory the mixed experience beating your best friends must be. On the other hand suppose it is not a competitive but is a supportive experience. After ten successive people thrutch successfully or unsuccessfully on a climb, all receiving mad applause, what is one to do with that? Is it self -esteem we are seeking? If so, is this the most effective way to gain it?
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Mimi
climber
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Bob, I have to take issue with your comments above about hangdogging. It wasn't stupidity that made people climb boldly and in excellent style. It was pride born of tradition, pure and simple. Somewhere along the way, that got eclipsed by something else for you.
You know you're the climber you are because of your stupid past on all those stupid routes with your stupid pals hanging your stupid asses out in order to get up some stupid route only to go down and do something a little less stupid for awhile.
Cheers and have a good night,
Mimi
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