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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:52pm PT
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Humans are complex, Ian.
I've never talked politics or religion with Cragman. We share a love of mountains and building and that's enough for me to want him to stick around.
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Karen
Trad climber
Prescott, AZ ~ God's country!!!!
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:56pm PT
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If I kill myself will I go to Hell?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 30, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
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IF he is indeed omnipotent and loves mankind, he could refuse to allow such suffering.
IF he is omnipotent but will not prevent it, then he is a monster almost beyond comprehension.
IF he can not prevent it then he is not omnipotent and is ineffectual.
The logical version states that either "God" as defined by His "omni" attributes does not exist, or that one (or more) of His "omni" attributes is not actually omni.
Rather than reiterate Plantinga's response, which is involved, I'll just sum up to say that this version of the problem of evil depends upon a modal confusion. Plantinga cleared up the confusion, and the vast majority of philosophers today believe that there is not a sustainable logical version of the problem.
However, the intuitive version is indeed troubling, as we "just know" (from our limited empirical evidence) that "God could have done better." I've felt the pain and the intuitions emerging from it very poignantly in my own life.
I don't claim (nor does anybody I know) to have "the answer," simply because intuitions have to be educated, and it takes different evidence for different people.
That said, I do think that Plantinga's "free will defense" not only resolves the logical version of the problem but offers some key insight into the intuitive version.
First, we do not understand the nature of evil fully, but we do know that it emerged as a function of free will. Thus, the ultimate responsibility rests on the shoulders of beings who exercised their free will to turn to evil. That has had far more sweeping effects than we really grasp, and the causal chains are long, subtle, and we see only a few of the links.
Second, God has much "longer view" and plan to resolve the problem than we realize. Consider that what He has to juggle is: A) The problem in principle emerges from free will, yet He is committed to genuine free will; B) He has to produce an ultimate resolution to the evil in His universe such that it never arises again.
He cannot obtain (B) as long as (A), and Plantinga's successful "free will defense" shows that there is a logical (modal) relation between free will and the possibility of evil. Thus, as long as (A), it seems that (B) is impossible in principle. Yet God is committed to (A). Hmmm!
However, this is merely a paradox rather than a contradiction. To see how, we would have to delve deeply into both modal logic and the nature of the relations between the distinctions of a priori and a posteriori knowledge, and the distinctions between necessity and contingency.
I'm not "blowing smoke" to "evade" the "answer" here! It's just that it really is the case that "armchair philosophers" really struggle when philosophy becomes genuinely technical. And that's why it's so hard to be a philosopher on these forums. When I even START, I'm accused of "walls of text." When I try to "condense," there are necessarily holes, because it's impossible to be philosophically rigorous "in a nutshell."
So, I really am torn. There really is no "simple" way to "sum up" how an answer can be procured. I'd love to "nutshell" it, but I'm also not willing to do a piss-poor job of it. So, sadly, in a forum context, there is just no way I can see to "educate your intuitions" as they'd need to be.
IMHO and that of many other rigorously trained philosophers, there are perfectly acceptable answers to even the intuitive version of the problem of evil. How deep down the rabbit hole are you ready to go to see what the basis of such answers might be? How many lengthy forum posts are you prepared to not just skim but really contemplate?
:-)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Mar 30, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
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Mar 30, 2016 - 08:56pm PT
If I kill myself will I go to Hell?
Karen, I seriously hope that isn't a cry for help and you're just asking metaphorically.
Seriously, suicide is nothing to tease about. We aren't supposed to take our own lives. Our lives are not our own. We have Family and Friends that we are responsible to. And we are responsible to
G-d. Suicide should never be considered an option.
However, there are circumstances where G-d would understand. 9-11 and the building is on fire and you chose to jump rather than be burned alive. I think G-d would understand, and you better be praying all the way on the way down.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Mar 30, 2016 - 10:06pm PT
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hey dude , please do not ask Madbolter any questions , or he will unleash a tsunami of pretentiously intellectual nonsense on you that will leave us all dazed and confused , please retract your question and hope that he missed your post because he has already left to go to his MENSA meeting
Haha. You won't find many religious people at MENSA meetings.
Curt
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Mar 30, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
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I don't have a question.
limpingcrab! You put this thread up in an attempt to convert some of us to your Christian theology & ways.
It really isn't a question & answer thread, but a forum for you and your fellow Christians to spew Christine doctrine at us non-Christian sinners.
Moosedrool put up what may be the best rebuttal to your BS, but your thread belongs on another forum than this one.
Moosedrool:
Limping...
I admire your resolute. But your critical thinking is lacking.
You answer the questions with citations from the Bible. Sorry, but the Bible can be used to "explain" or justify anything. It is not the book of truths, just a collection of various philosophies of many people with a common theme, God. Many verses are very insightful and helpful, but most are outdated, as the book was written long time ago.
The 10 Commandments are still important today to most people, Christians or not (except for believing in The God, of course). But, most of the world's population is non-christian. They have their own system of believes, and they are doing no worse than Christians.
We are all looking for answers in this strange world. I hope you find your's.
I don't have any answers, I am trying to live my life without hurting other people. That's the best I can do.Moose
Here's some of what I worship, & I don't believe any of those places were created by your mythical god.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Mar 30, 2016 - 10:10pm PT
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A lot of questions....
Not a lot of answers...
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Mar 30, 2016 - 10:13pm PT
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Fritz, chill man. I never got the impression that Limpingcrab was trying to convert anyone.
Rule number one in life should be; never judge others for what they believe. Disagree, but accept that their feelings are legit.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 30, 2016 - 10:13pm PT
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IF he is omnipotent but will not prevent it, then he is a monster almost beyond comprehension.
He tries to prevent it 24/7 eternally, but you fools never listen except to your own stupid minds.
Thus you're like stoopid little kids who are told not to stick your finger in the moving fan, but do so anyways.
What can be done then?
You're just plain stoopid and thus get hurt and then blame God .....
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2016 - 10:39pm PT
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why would I ask a Christian about anything?
Each answer is different, depending on the person - and this is not even a person.
It's an avatar on a climbing forum. Because we have all the answers, duh! :)
Hi, I'm Daniel Jeffcoach, and I kind of look like an avatar with a big head.
My beef with organized religion is that holy water will not burn through the people who wear crosses and are actually complete pieces of sh#t. That's definitely a problem. I try to tell people to judge Christianity by Christ, not Christians. Christ is the example and he despised hypocrisy more than anything (Matthew 15:7-9).
All that one could do is start effecting the world with own actions, so I have to admit Daniel is the good Christian to have. But don't believe me, who knows what sort of crazy sh#t he does in his basement.... I don't have a basement, all the crazy stuff is in my attic. PS. thanks for the compliments, maybe I'll actually pay attention next time you're on belay.
Miracles and divine intervention
defy logic and reason.
As such, used to govern
is absurd and dangerous.
Why?
Love and respect. I agree, love and respect are the primary teaching of Jesus (Galatians 5:14)
What should we do with all the new Reagan ranches and millions of homeless folks?
should the Government be vindictive towards the poor?
and make it easier to fall into a pitiful despair because the jobs have disappeared due to conservative policies.
or can the Government provide the needed resources that are paid by our taxes,
the church will never be able to afford the needed funds for the millions that need help
Can you address this?
Should we cast them aside, or use the Government to provide a safety net?
I can't speak for what the government should do, but I believe God uses them (Romans 13, though it focuses on using the government to punish). What I do think is that Jesus teaches to take care of the poor so we should try (Proverbs 19:17). I guess it could be argued that we should do whatever we can to help those in need, whether it be politically or personally (2nd Corinthians 9:7, 1st John 3:17). Good question.
Perhaps you can respond to this argument - it is often put forward but I have yet to hear a logical answer:
Is God omnipotent? Did he create everything?
Did he create the thousands of terrible diseases, birth defects, all the horrible maladies that humans are subject to whether they are believers or not, and whether or not they have had any hand in causing them?
Could he prevent non-anthropogenic natural disasters such as eruptions, tsunamis?
Why, if he is a “loving God”, does he allow humans to slaughter and torture each other as horribly as they have done throughout history?
IF he is indeed omnipotent and loves mankind, he could refuse to allow such suffering.
IF he is omnipotent but will not prevent it, then he is a monster almost beyond comprehension.
IF he can not prevent it then he is not omnipotent and is ineffectual.
Just askin’. Really common question among Christians and probably anyone who lives on earth. Obviously I don't have God's mind and nobody can perfectly understand what He is doing (1st Corinthians 13:12), but here is what I believe based on what the bible teaches.
-God created the world carefully for people, without sin, but with free will. People exercised that free will and chose to learn of good and evil (Genesis)
-Because of this, nobody is actually innocent for we have all sinned and have sin in our nature, that is, the tendency to follow our desires instead of God (Romans 3:23). By this definition, nobody who has been born is innocent.
-He uses suffering to draw us close to Him so that we rely on Him. If you think you have everything figured out you're likely to be arrogant and not realize you need a relationship with Jesus (2nd Corinthians 4:16-18)
-It refines our faith in Jesus (1 Peter 1:7)
-It keeps our focus on the eternal perspective rather than our current issues (Romans 8:18)
On a personal note from what I have seen, people living in incomprehensible suffering with strong faith in Jesus are some of the most joyful people I have ever met. I have slept on the dirt with people's animals that keep them warm at night and been greeted by their giant smiles in the morning, though they also suffer from serious health issues. Some people say God is a crutch that people use to deal with suffering, and I believe that he loves to be exactly that for us. He wants us to give him our burdens (1st Peter 5:7)
Maybe that's still illogical, but so is suffering and dying for people that have rejected you.
Wouldn't it be cool if the religious organizations used their DONATIONS for the good of the people, instead of... Yup
Some people think that Pharoah hardened his own heart and God used it for his purposes.
Some people may think that, but my Bible specifically says that God did it. I guess it depends on how you interpret the original language, but I agree with you.
So that's why all those innocent Egyptians had to die? Why not just announce to everyone on Earth via a burning bush? True, but as history shows, even people who see all of the miracles will turn their backs on God. So it may not be that simple (Exodus).
Here’s a critical point to grasp: if your trust was fully anchored in your Creators the way it’s supposed to be, then it wouldn’t matter that the Bible isn’t perfect. The degree to which you feel stressed over all of the errors we’re pointing out to you is the degree to which you’re still depending on the book to guide you in life. You can’t depend on a book. You need to be depending entirely on Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. If you’re going to get far with Them, then every obstacle that is standing between you and total dependency on Them must be torn down. That’s why They have intentionally preserved a collection of records that are so full of wrong theology and bad examples. Our Gods knew we humans would try to turn the book into an idol that we could replace Them with, so They made sure to riddle the book with idiotic thinking and such glaring errors that we’d be forced to stop worshiping it if we ever started down the road of honest seeking, and we can’t get anywhere with our Gods until we are honest.
I believe the Bible was inspired by God and that relying on its teachings is relying on God (2nd Timothy 3:16-17)
The Cult Test
Questions 1 to 100
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
91. Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
• 92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.
• 93. Black And White Thinking
• 94. The use of heavy-duty mind control and rapid conversion techniques.
• 95. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who leaves the group.
• 96. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who criticizes the group.
• 97. Appropriation of all of the members' worldly wealth.
• 98. Making cult members work long hours for free.
• 99. Total immersion and total isolation.
• 100. Mass suicide.
the bottom line is its all about the love that God has for all of us.
Amen, I hope I'm not complicating this main idea as I try to address some questions.
If I kill myself will I go to Hell? I believe that depends on whether or not you have accepted the love of Jesus (Romans 10:9-10).
Haha. You won't find many religious people at MENSA meetings. Oh contraire, 90% of Nobel Prize laureates in the 20th century associated themselves with some sort of religious belief. nobelist.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/50-nobelists.pdf
limpingcrab! You put this thread up in an attempt to convert some of us to your Christian theology & ways.
Sorry if it comes across that way, I just saw a lot of weird ideas going around about faith in Jesus and thought some people might want to ask one of us crazy people. Looks like some people did have questions. It's also good for me to really think about what I believe...
PS. Jesus loved heading into the wilderness too! (Luke 5:16, one of my favorites and what I tell people when I skip church :)
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Karen
Trad climber
Prescott, AZ ~ God's country!!!!
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Mar 31, 2016 - 07:43am PT
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You are correct Klimmer that we have a responsibility to others not to take our own lives, it is what I struggle with. The pain is just so deep at times it feels like the only way out is to just end it. Having two kids is what keeps me here.
People tell me to have faith in God and his spirit will bring joy but for whatever reason I am not able to do this. I try and try.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 31, 2016 - 07:47am PT
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Go to a cult site you fancy imagining cultists. Creepy Zombie Cult weirdos. Start another war! Your minds are so interesting...Not.
Poor victims of childhood indoctrination to a terror cult.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Mar 31, 2016 - 08:02am PT
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So many of the stories in the Bible are borrowed from religions and people before them, so much so that in today's world they'd get sued for plagiarism.
Limpingcrab you say Jesus despised hypocrites then say that love and forgiveness were his biggest teachings. If the man did in fact exist, I think he was an example of what humans could be and despising anything would not have been apart of him.
One thing that I never understood was why God is referred to being a He. If anything I'd think it is an energy that is in everything and resembles nothing like a human or our emotions. If God is capable of love than he also can hate. I don't think energy can do either.
Some people need religion and I'm fine with that, but I think it is part of the problem in dividing us as humans. Try to do more good than bad and accept people as they are, because we are all living different lives.
I am destined for hell according to the Bible, because I don't accept Jesus as my Savior. I think salvation is up to each of us and Hell is in what we need to learn next go around on this perfect chaotic dream.
Daniel I don't see you as a good Christian, I see you as a great person and respect your faith that you feel is right. Namaste and sh#t.
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John M
climber
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Mar 31, 2016 - 08:34am PT
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If God is capable of love than he also can hate.
God isn't capable of love. He is Love. there is no hate in Love. I realize that that is a subtle difference. But it is an important one. How could Love.. be hate? It can't. Therefore God is not capable of hate. It is impossible. Can God know what hate is? Certainly. But He/She is not capable of it. Therefore God does not hate the hypocrite, nor even the hypocritical action. What those teachers were trying to express and maybe not doing a great job of it, or perhaps translations are not able to handle the subtleties is that hypocrisy can not exist in the presence of the Lord. If it comes before the Lord, then it is wiped out instantly, even before the full presence of the Lord comes into that place. This is a difficult concept to teach because words have limitations, and God does not. So if one has hypocritical actions, or beliefs, then depending on how attached one is to those actions, then that can keep one from the presence of the Lord. This is what it means in the story of creation in Genesis that Adam and Eve hid from God after they had broken God's rules for them. Not that God doesn't want to Love that person, and not that God doesn't Love that person, but that that person is now incapable of receiving God's Love, as they have put up a block to it. They put up the block, not God. God will not force a person to accept his Love. There is no forcefulness in Love. Therefore it is always up to us to turn back towards God and once again become capable of receiving God's Love. That is what repentance is, the turning around and facing God. Once you do that, then you can once again receive all that God Is. What people don't understand from that point is that we have many many areas within that have turned from God. So it is not one act that heals everything. But many many times that one must recognize the point when they turned from God, and then remake that decision. The Buddha taught that it was a million decisions that took us away from God, and therefore to come back into the full presence of God, we must make a million correct decisions. But once again, that is not a black and white teaching and the process of making one million correct decisions is not a straight line. in that process, we will make mistakes. Mistakes are not sins. Being attached to that mistake and holding onto it once one realizes the mistake is a sin. We do not have to be perfect. We are perfected when we turn to God.
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STEEVEE
Social climber
HUMBOLDT, CA
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Mar 31, 2016 - 08:58am PT
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John, that was a beautiful way to say, ' It is what it is'.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Mar 31, 2016 - 09:02am PT
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Enjoyed reading your reasoning John M. You argue your point very well and I like how you included Buddha. I think love and hate are polar opposites of the same thing, but see it as a human emotion though.
I like your interpretation of God as love, but fail to see how the Bible's God should be feared and some of his(using biblical terms here even though I failed to capitalize) actions are anything but loving.
I feel if Jesus did exist today he wouldn't identify himself as a Christian, he'd most likely be a Taoist or Buddhist.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 31, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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I feel if Jesus did exist today he wouldn't identify himself as a Christian
The true definition of Christian is "One who Loves God"
Has nothing to do with Buddhist, Muslim, Christian etc etc
Those material designations are due to poor fund of knowledge.
Jesus Christ is eternal and never ever left nor is he ever dead.
The consciousness of Jesus Christ is always there thus he never died nor ever left.
The illusion of birth and death is created by your very own imperfect material senses.
Attributing a material body to an eternally liberated soul is another poor fund of knowledge.
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John M
climber
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Mar 31, 2016 - 09:38am PT
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but fail to see how the Bible's God should be feared
I believe that in most places where the bible uses the term "fear".. it should be translated as "awe".
So the Psalms that many translate as saying: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom". It should say:
Awe of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Else why would the bible say over and over. Fear not, for I am with you. God has no desire for anyone to fear Him/Her.
The thing is, awe does not come from words alone. It comes from experience. If you have no awe of God, then you have turned you back on God and thus have no experience of God. At that point, one can only experience God through God's creation, and since we as humans have dominion of this portion of God's creation, we can screw it up and make it even more difficult to know God. For the most part, humans are walking away from God.
...
As for the question of why God does not stop natural disasters. One would have to understand reincarnation, free will, and karma to understand the interaction. God has stepped in many many times. People just aren't aware of his actions as they have turned from Him/Her. This world would have been destroyed and become unloveable many times over if God had not stepped in. But God would not take away our opportunity to learn from our mistakes, so He/She allows us to experience them. To stop all natural disasters would be like the parent who overprotects his/her child from the consequences of their actions. They end up spoiled as evidenced by some kids whose parents buy them out of every predicament that they put themselves into. Unless they learn from their mistakes, then many of them end up destroyed.
And yes, our actions have a physical effect on this world as everything is energy and is thus interconnected. Though in the gross material world it is not so obvious. Its hard to imagine rock as energy. Yet if you apply enough energy to it, you can change it.
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John M
climber
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Mar 31, 2016 - 09:50am PT
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then why do you read it? aren't you one of those who over and over have told us on this forum that if people don't like non climbing topics, then don't read them?
Don't read what I write. Use that script that blocks you from seeing my posts if you have no control.
Abide by your own teachings..
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 31, 2016 - 09:51am PT
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How do you know God is Love?
What does Love have to do with anything?
You do realize that the universe is huge and our little planet of loving humans are so insignificant to anything beyond our own minds
Where Dinosaurs part of the Love story? do bacteria love?
Love is not even a quantifiable emotion.
Love can't even be completely defined
Is it more than just a warm and fuzzy feeling?
are you sure?, tell us exactly what it is than
this whole notion of God and love is a totally fabricated ideology.
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