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ecdh
climber
the east
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Mar 27, 2016 - 03:43pm PT
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"Women who aspire to equality with men are underachievers" Tim Leary.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 27, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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Ikil agrees with ya Ed:)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 27, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
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I am just relateing my personal experiences on various jobs with large crews. restarunts, big photography crew and construction. There are people who get it done and people who don't. That has nothing to do with race, gender or sexual orientation. If you come in the door with a chip on your shoulder looking for troubble you will find it. If you mind your own buisness, do all the right things and troubble finds you then you have every right to cause a big stink.
Ed. I have been descriminated against pleanty. I once worked in a hotel where the Austrian chef would play Wagner, goose step arround the kitchen and call me jew boy. I was 19 , scared stiff and did not know how to handel it. I have had much worse situations but this was certainly one that pretains to this conversation. I wish someone had taught me the basics. #1. keep your head down and try to do a good job. #2 if someone does something blatant like Nazi salutes, goose stepping and name calling say two words. Labor Board.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 27, 2016 - 05:42pm PT
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PS. why would women want to be equal to men when they are allready superior?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 27, 2016 - 10:18pm PT
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The young women professors on tenure track at MIT came in enthusiastic to succeed at doing science, they were supported by the male faculty who were equally enthusiastic. They very likely did not come in with a "chip on their shoulder."
Somehow this didn't translate into success, in the very few cases where tenure was granted, those women professors failed to garner the support to acquire the resources needed for continued success.
That this was demonstrable came as a shock to the MIT faculty, 90% men... and required them to look at the way judgements of success were reached, and how resources were distributed. There was no Labor Board to appeal to (and even it there had been, chances are the board members would have been all males).
While I don't want to seem like I am minimizing your experiences, having a difficult co-employee is different from working within a discriminatory system. In all likelihood, a woman employed to do the same things you did, and who did them at the same level of competence as you showed, would have been paid less than you.
How would she have taken that to the Labor Board?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 28, 2016 - 03:27am PT
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I don't know anything about acadamia. One look at my creative spelling should confirm that. just telling you what my experience in the blue collar workforce is.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Mar 28, 2016 - 04:57am PT
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Ed, have you had a chance to take a look at a gender ratio at your local school board?
Is it equal?
Do local feminists complain about this inequality?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 28, 2016 - 10:44am PT
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a 5 member board of which 2 are female, and 3 are male...
...if you look at the the Livermore school system in general, 80% of the administration, staff and support are women.
Issues of the cost of K-12 education are essentially related to the salaries that the teachers make, so it is interesting to see that women are the ones most effected by low teacher salaries, and criticisms of teaching competence, and accountability.
While this important societal role, teaching the children, falls predominantly to women (at least in Livermore) one wonders at the societal support for this important profession. And further, we can ask the question, why aren't there more men in this profession?
My suspicion is that men can make a higher salary in other jobs.
tradmanclimbs
what is your experience working with women in the blue collar settings that you have worked in?
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Mar 28, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
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I know a few men who want to work as a teacher, but can't get such job.
It looks like gender based discrimination to me.
Why aren't all these feminists concerned about such clear case?
Doesn't it mean that their "equality" slogan actually mean something else?
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cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
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Mar 28, 2016 - 02:47pm PT
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 28, 2016 - 03:51pm PT
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tough question Ed as peoples tolerances are rapidly changeing for the better for everyone except Muslims. I will say that even back in the eightys people who did a good job with a good attitude were valued and treated well. Working construction is a different beast. When a bunch of guys work with just guys they sound like a bunch of sexist adolecent morons. It certainly does not help that the crew I am on now is mostly kids in their 20's that listen to too much hip hop. A lot of the crap they say is direct quotes from the crap rap they listen to. When a real live woman shows up on the jobsite they suddenly turn into polite little sheep. the crew i was on last year hired a woman the last month or so i was on that job and we all cleaned up our mouths and got allong just fine.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 28, 2016 - 06:09pm PT
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When I worked at JCPenney, I felt there was gender equality, at least at the store level. To move up into store management, one HAD to be willing to reloctae, as that was how they "brought you through the ranks." You'd be an assistant manager at your local store and a promotion meant either an assistat manager at a bigger store, or a manager at a small sore somewhere - anywhere - in one of the myriad small towns out there.
One of our assistant managers turned down a promotion years earlier, because it would have meant moving his kids to some tinytown at ages when they were in junior high - not a great time to uproot your kids and take them to the frontier. He was never offered another opportunity to be promoted. You say no, that was it.
We had several women who managed departments, and from what I saw they were treated the same way the male department managers were. That may have been because our store manager, Mister Osterholdt, was a good, fair guy.
But I don't know that a woman was ever offered a promotion beyond department level(meaning, a relocation). I can't imagine many men were open to the idea of a relocation for their wife's job; this was in the 1980's, when men were only beginning to experience the transition from lifetime at one place with pension, to permanent layoffs, downsizing and plant closures.
When I moved to NYC and worked in fashion, gender equality was nonexistent. I believe earlier in this thread I detailed the difference in how male and female sales people came on board and advanced. Basically - women didn't.
At the first handbag place I worked, my boss actually took his assistant(who "doubled" as receptionist) on a sales trip to a major retailer, when she insisted she start to receive the training in sales she had been promised when interviewing. When they got to the hotel, he told her there was a problem - the hotel had screwed up and not saved a room for her. Yup - you guessed it. That poor girl was told not to worry, that she could share HIS room. She came back to work after that trip with the attitude of a woman who had been date raped.
The men in that company regularly put we females in uncomfortable situations, with sexual innuendos and behavior. I think I also mentioed earlier than at one time I felt something on my leg. Thinking it was a mouse, I screamed and turned - to see the boss mentioned above, on his knees behind me. He said "Oh, but your stockings are sooo sexy, I just wanted to touch them."
This was not in the dark ages. WELL after "women's lib" had come and gone out of the spotlight. It was 1988.
We talked about what we should do, we women at that company. And we all knew that if we wanted to work in the handbag industry - where we had been getting our experience, which is not always transferable to other types of fashion - we could do not one damned thing. Complain - file a suit? Sure, go right ahead, and never work in the field again. When you have gone to school, gotten your degree, spent a few years learning the industry and gaining experience, moving up the pay - the choice was to try to manage the harassment or throw your career away.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 29, 2016 - 03:10am PT
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in construction fileing a workman comp claim is just as much of a carere killer. I don't know how much of that is real and how much is imagined but unless you get a full blown ambulence ride we suck it up and pay our own medical expenses and deal with our long term injurys and chronic pain.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Mar 30, 2016 - 12:51pm PT
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The FDA has approved an updated label on the abortion drug mifepristone, which will put a woman's right to choose back within her control. I applaud those who have said "enough is enough" with the attempts to control women.
http://progresstexas.org/blog/fda-just-dealt-major-blow-texas-abortion-restriction
And yay for those who are also refusing to "do business" with states that are attempting to place similar constraints on the LGTB populalion.
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c wilmot
climber
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Mar 30, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
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why even have male/female bathrooms if you people no longer want the gender to mean anything?
lets just tear down the walls...
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cat t.
climber
california
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Mar 30, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
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Sorry if someone already posted this after bringing up the issue of female hygiene expenses, but one of my friends is working on this bill, scrapping the tampon tax in Cali!
Ed, Happie, Lollie, thanks for some great posts.
Two rather vague points:
1) Pointing out that men in our society face many unique (and, yes, quite sexist!) challenges does not invalidate the unique challenges women face. It's not a game of "who has it worse?!" It's real life. A man struggling to retain custody of his children and a woman struggling to work in a field where sexual abuse is ubiquitous and ignored are both victims of the same thing: a society in which gender equality has not been reached.
2) If you are a well-educated, middle class white woman who was raised by progressive parents, you do not have a representative view of the challenges faced by an average American woman. I am in that category. Many women who like to roll their eyes at feminists and say they can "hang with the boys" are also in that category. I was raised to catch lizards, ace calculus, speak up for myself, and fix my own bike/car/sink--basically, my parents expected me to act like the "Average American White Man." As a result, I have never encountered sexism in a way that held me back from my goals. Living a personally charmed life does not mean that sexism is not real. A very simple example: As a teenager, if I got cat-called by strangers, I put in my headphones and forgot about it. Were those men oppressing me? Hell no, I could just walk away. But! Those men went home to wives and daughters, who could not walk away. I imagine that if a barrage of sexual/sexist comments had come from male relatives, every day of my youth, my self-perception would be a LOT different.
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c wilmot
climber
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Mar 30, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
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in what field of work is sexual abuse "ubiquitous"???
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cat t.
climber
california
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Mar 30, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
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Based on the number of recent scandals, academic astronomy.
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c wilmot
climber
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Mar 30, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
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is that like the scandal Rolling Stone uncovered?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 30, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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I'm surprised nobody has noted the recent Canadian travesty of justice
wherein Jian Ghomeshi, a popular TV personality, was acquitted of numerous
charges of sexual harassment and assault. The Canadian public is outraged.
Business as usual and, as usual, the victims were the ones put on trial.
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