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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
Sacramento, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
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Russ,
Werner is right.
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Rich the Brit
Trad climber
San Ramon, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:34pm PT
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Fail Safe Rappel Technique
1. Rappel device screw gate through harness belay loop
2. Prussik loop screw gate through leg loop or waist belt loop - NOT belay loop
A. If the belay loop fails, the prussik will hold the harness by waist or leg loops - may not be comfy, but will hold.
B. If leg loops or waist belt fails, the belay loop will hold the reamining harness component - you might be uside down.
C. If rappel device, prussik or either of screw gates fail, there is a back up.
D. If both screw gates fail, and/or harness leg/waist belt and belay loop fail, someone has it in for you (your girlfriend found out about your wife or the other way around?).
Prussik above or below rappel device? Matter of choice - I prefer above for slightly lessened risk of disappearing of the end of the ropes.
When we tie-in for climbing, we exclude the belay loop from the system, relying on the rope, but doubling up on the harness with the leg loops and waist belt both tied-in. When we rappel without a prussik, we are less likely to experience a fall, but we add a single component to the chain with no backups.
There are other good reasons to use a prussik on rappel - just clip to the leg loops/waist belt direct for extra redundancy.
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:47pm PT
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Hell Russ, I climb on a lot better gear than you, but I feel the same way. Quit worrying, if it looks like sh#t it is sh#t, otherwise climb on.
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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I'm no gear company guru, but working as a guide and for ropes course companies I've made my own conclusions about using gear.
The longest you can realistically use any nylon product is 10 years. That is the longest manufacturers have put on any lable I have seen and also the maximum standard required when inspecting rope courses and making facilities absolutely retire gear. I would say that equals about 10 years max use of a rope as a top rope. After 5 years of use/storage a rope isn't very dynamic anymore either so I choose not to lead on it regardless if the sheeth looks great after 5 years. The recommended max life of a harness seems to be 7 years and 5 years for webbing. Rope=10, Lead Rope=5, Harness= 7, Webbing= 5. Those are all max figures in my mind, that seem to be an average of different manufactures suggestions, what the AMGA says, and what the ropes course companies seem to require. That is for gear that still looks good, something that looks bad enough to make you wander/changing colors/frayed etc I generally throw out. For metal products I've seen up to 20 years recommended. I tend to chuck carabiners that are so scratched up you can't read the branded markings or that are heavily worn. After 10 years of moderate use most cams I've used that are that old seem almost worthless even with heavy lube/cleaning let alone incredibly difficult to place in comparison to newer/better condition ones.
Yeah I hate retiring stuff and especially buying so many stupid climbing shoes, but it is part of the sport. At least we don't have to pay for what we do in this sport beyond our investment in our climbing gear. I'm especially weary of all the new products on the market. There are all these new great things out there like those super thin dyneema slings, which haven't been around long enough to know a lot about their wear and tear. Probably shouldn't be used as anything other than a runner. Or say the new 8.9 single ropes, that've just come out, I'd be weary of using them super aggressively for extended time until they've been around a while. Although the heavy user would probably core shot it in a less than 2 years anyway; we shouldn't just trust it no matter what because it is a "single" rope though.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 26, 2006 - 08:16pm PT
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From another Todd / harness / safety thread on cc.com...
Climber quote - My points are:
1) Consider a back-up for your belay loop.
2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious
3) Toss your old sh#t, especially biners and slings
4) Be suspect of skinny slings
5) It is easy to use two biners on your belay - rappel
6) Double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc
Can't necessarily concur with these conclusions being the takeaway lessons from losing Todd.
1) Consider a back-up for your belay loop.
 Consider inspecting your harness (and all gear) frequently and replacing it when worn or damaged.
Understand that the current "ultralight" trend is not "free" - the costs quite often are paid in longevity and robustness. If you go "lite" expect to inspect and replace gear at a much higher freqency and ultimately treat all such gear as consumable or disposable after a perod of time.
2) Don't use anything old or questionable when a failure is serious.
3) Toss your old sh#t, especially biners and slings.
4) Be suspect of skinny slings.
Blanket assumptions do not apply across classes of gear and materials. Know the limitations of the materials and designs of your gear.
Understand the material lifecycle limitations and acceptable conditions for use of all your gear. Inspect it often, replace as necessary.
Don't get overly attached to gear - especially "comfortable" gear that can't be replaced because it is no longer made.
We all tend to be cheap and "get used" to gear we like; understand this is not always appropriate in all cases - be critical, flexible, and adaptable.
Don't try to "squeak" one more route, trip, or season out of worn or damaged gear.
5) It is easy to use two biners on your belay - rappel
6) Double yourself up when "daisying off" at hanging raps, etc.
Know when redundancy is appropriate, necessary, and / or desirable and how it can best be achieved.
Understand redundancy can be acheived in many ways and don't go overboard (like one daisy and the rope vs. two daisies). "One is good, two is better" is not always true, but sometimes it is - know the difference which may vary based on conditions and circumstance.
The act of climbing involves a "risk context" with many component and constituent elements and subcontexts. One [concrete] "risk subcontext" is the system comprised of all physical components associated with protection from the belayer to leader as well as the strategy and tactics used in its implementation on each route. Another [abstract] "risk subcontext" is the collection of decisions made by all parties during a climb based on the route attributes, experience, expertise, and environmental conditions involved. You should strive to understand as much as possible about the limitations of material, design, and use of all physical components involved and how they contribute to your overall "risk profile" at any time. That is germane both in the long-term relative to gear maintenance and in the short term relative to how you employ / deploy gear to get up a route.
In general, it is fairly remarkable how many of today's climbers coming out of gyms perceive risk. They often tend to completely overlook obvious perils and obsess over things that present trival risk at best. Try to learn as much as you can, keep your eyes and ears open, and think for yourself...
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Oct 26, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
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Russ,
How about adding "climb with a harness made out of an old aider." That'd have everyone's heads spinning.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
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Hey Russ:
Your last post pretty well nailed all of this. Right on, I agree completely. You always have ruled...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
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For general replacement of sewn slings on cams and similar, besides Yates, there is also Mountain Tools:
http://www.mountaintools.com/cat/rclimb/cams/mt_camresling.htm
http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/slings/index.htm#9
Metolius and Black Diamond were also mentioned for replacing sewn slings on their own cams.
Personally, I use slings with water knots on most of my cams, unless the cam came with a sewn sling. I tighten the knots by bouncing on the sling, to make sure they don't loosen and untie at an inopportune moment. I prefer knots because I can maintain them myself, and they are easy to inspect. I don't know how to tell when sewn/bartacked stuff is getting weak, but I understand knots. I do use Spectra runners, though.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2006 - 12:28am PT
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I don't agree with anything here.
There is intelligent design ......
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Keeper of Australia Mt
Trad climber
Whitehorse, Yukon , Canada
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Oct 27, 2006 - 02:15am PT
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Quite an interesting thread. I started into this game in 2001 and purchased a Mammut Flash (10.5) 60M rope - I have only used it occasionally ( in part because no one my age is climbing in this neck of the woods so it is a bit of a challenge getting out as the young turks tend to want to climb with their own age grade - a lot of my climbing utilizes guides and they provide the ropes)- it is stored in a Metolius rope bag in the front entrance of my house - so light and temp should not be an issue. About 2003 I bought a Mammut Triodess (10.5) 60M rope for leading but have not yet used it - same storage situation.
No serious falls on either. I figure the Flash is good for a couple of seasons more at this level of use and then I will pitch it. If I was doing some good multipitch and leading I would go to the Triodess.
Harness wise I initially bought a Trango one but it was a bit of tight fit so a couple of years back I bought an Arcteryx
harness -
My trad gear is in good shape - I can't seen any near term replacement issues with any of it - I tend to be oriented to caution and a tad of conservatism regarding safety - I bought high quality gear - none of the cheapie or used stuff. This found favor with Colin Morehead at Squamish Rock Guides and I put a lot of respect in what he has to say on this stuff. But it is always good to remember that all gear can potentially fail and just seems to be a good idea to implement effective backups where it is appropriate and possible - afterall the placements are free!
I have some cordelettes for trad anchors (my Jtree training under Clark Jacobs wired me with the beauty of those) and I have a couple of autoblock cords for rapping. Retirement cycling of those items is now embedded. I tend to use autoblocks all the time for rapping - a low cost, effective back-up - creates a slower rap but unless you are in the middle of a lighting performance and having to get out of the target zone in a hurry - it is no big deal. I have wondered though about the heat buildup and potential consequences thereof for using autoblocks in big, long raps - same with the belay device. Not a big worry in single pitch toproping but I wonder about big, long raps etc. Would be good to hear folks thoughts on that. Given the relative minimal cost of an autoblock, seems that seasonal replacment of those wouldn't be a big deal depending on level of use.
So in the end I am not going to go overboard on this but I do think this discussion is of value. Some of the testing identified in the thread would be very interesting and would be of value to the climbing community. Thanks to those sharing their expertise and experience with the rest of us.
Some of this makes me better appreciate some of Bob Gaines comments in Jtree - he spent a bit of time examining my harness and was commenting on construction attributes, bar tacks etc. The harness passed his inspection but I now have a better sense of what he was thinking about now.
I think we have to keep this one in perspective - given the numbers of climbing person hours on rock worldwide etc. - and really a very few incidents of this type - frankly it seems a bit out of whack given the real evidence of fatalities from not wearing a helmet or from rapping off the end of rope (when a simple knot at the end negates the issue). Common sense can go a long way and folks should be reviewing the quality of their gear regularly and confirming the integrity of it. I think Russ has this pegged pretty well.
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McC
Trad climber
Livermore Ca
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Oct 27, 2006 - 04:43am PT
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Brian in Sl, GhoulweJ, and Larry - as related to your earlier posts, there were 2 tragic harness accidents that come to mind that had lawsuits associated with them and may have influenced Chouinard's decision to sell the climbing equipment portion of his business to the employees.There was a leader who fell out of his Culp harness on Ordeal at the Pinnacles. As I understood it from a witness to the event, the leader was clipped into the waist belt with a locking biner and had not tied into the essential tie-in loops on either side of the non-load rated belt buckle. Sounded like operator error. Other incident that comes to mind involved a guided client in (I heard) a BOD harness who presumably untied to commune with nature and did not properly tie back in when he resumed following -- or didn't double back his waist belt through the buckle. I think Bridwell had some insights on a situation like that. Might have been in the Tetons. Seemed like it was shortly after this that harness makers (BD and others) went to using a pair of stacked buckles.
Never met Todd Skinner, but am very sorry for Todd, his family and friends.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 27, 2006 - 11:32am PT
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Other incident that comes to mind involved a guided client in (I heard) a BOD harness who presumably untied to commune with nature and did not properly tie back in when he resumed following -- or didn't double back his waist belt through the buckle.
Yeah, Tetons, back behind Jenny Lake on the practise wall.
Pretty sure it was a Culp as well. If you look at when it happened, I'm not sure Chouinard was offering a BOD or Alpine BOD at that time (which came out in '88 or so?). Asked JRAT, he also said it was a Culp.
If you tie into the Culp directly, through the tie in loops, it kinda negates the need for a buckle. Nifty feature.
I have an Alpine Bod that JRAT built for me when he was with BD. Added a belay loop before they became standard. Its well used and...needs to be retired. Note to self...
-Brian in SLC
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Take!Take!
Trad climber
Durango Colorado
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Oct 27, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
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Study on webbing at Indian Creek.
Can't remember where I read it or who did the study, but some manufactor did a study of all the webbing at the belay stations at Indian creek because they were worried about the continued exposure to UV's in the desert.
Bottom line was even after continued expousure, some of the stuff had been there for upwards of 8 yrs, the webbing still retained like 95% of its orginal strength. Pretty durable stuff. I wished I could find the dang test data again......been looking for it.......but after I read there data made me feel alot better.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Oct 27, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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I read a post in which the writer said they cringe whenever they use the belay/rappel loop. I agree 100%, so I never use it for either of those two purposes. I don't care what a manufacturer says . . it simply defies one of the most basic rules in climbing that I was taught nearly 25 years ago and try to follow: don't create unnecessary, additional links in the safety system because each one is a potential point of failure.
I use two, large locking biners that I attach to my harness at the same place where I thread the rope for tying in, both gates down and out. In this way I decrease the number of links in the system by one. There is a concern for cross-loading the biners, but that is easily managed by adjusting the orientation of them when necessary. And of course the fact that there are two, means that there is redundancy in that link of the safety system. That is another basic rule in climbing as far as I'm concerned: back everything up, especially when it is fast and easy. . . doesn't matter how "safe" the situtation seems.
Derek Hersey, a climber not exactly known for a "safety first" approach to climbing, always backed up his ratty old harness by using a method previously mentioned on this thread. He used webbing for his chalkbag that was tied snug to his waist, with a water knot, and then the climbing rope was threaded through that has well as the harness. I should probably say that when Derek was using a rope, he was actually quite safety oriented.
The fact that people are discussing these issues basic to climbing safety is a very positive aspect of this terrible tradgedy.
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chollapete
Trad climber
tucson, az
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Oct 27, 2006 - 02:29pm PT
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This seems like a relevant thread for this question:
I just recently got a daisy chain that I had been keeping girth-hitched to the belay loop of my harness and which I used to clip-in to the anchor chains when setting or cleaning anchors on sport climbs. I had been wondering about this practice because it represented a single point of failure; i.e., I wasn't backing up the daisy chain and the 'biner with anything else. So, this practice had been on my mind.
Then, sorting my gear after this year's Beanfest, a Tucson climbing tradition, I noticed that the fabric of the Spectra daisychain had begun to fray at the point where it was girth-hitched around the belay loop. This made sense, because I was just leaving it girth-hitched while I climbed. So, as it was located right in front, it would have constantly been rubbing and abrading against the rock face as I climbed. Seeing this, I decided to keep the daisychain off the belay chain, clipping it to a rear gear loop while I climbed and then only attaching it to the belay loop while I was actually using it. (A better harness with hard gear loops would solve this, too.)
But, I'm still wondering about the single-point-of-failure aspect of using a daisy-chain to tie-in to a single anchor while setting or cleaning a top-rope.
Any comments?
Thanks,
Mark T.
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Paul_in_Van
Trad climber
Near Squampton
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Oct 27, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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H_B;
you mentioned cross-loading of belay biners a while ago. I use a DMM belay master for belaying/rappelling. A plastic cross bar prevents almost all crossloading (and if it does get into the slightly crossloaded position it can, it tends to rotate back to the correct axis under higher loads). YMMV.
C_Pete;
I use the rope as a second tie in point for all multipitches and while at top stations (though not religiously for top stations, if I am on a ledge then I usually consider standing there as a point of protection for redundancy purposes). I also keep in mind the safety of the belayer leaving me on belay with slack rope as a backup (though the fall wouldn't be a lot of fun, I'm sure).
The advantage of the rope tie in is that you are generally connected to the tie in point with a rope (though I have seen people tie into the belay loop) and my other point of contact is girthhitched to my belay loop.
Paul
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Oct 27, 2006 - 04:57pm PT
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I was watching this documentary called 'Cliffhanger' and there was a harness failure involved on a tyrolean traverse way off the deck. It looked like the buckle melted down.
If Gabe was only a little bit stronger or wore a little less body oil things may have turned out better.
We're all talking about harnesses, but I still flash back to a photo of Tom Frost aiding out under the Salathe' headwall on a few wraps of white 1" tube; no leg loops, no fleece lining, no gear loops.
I'm seriously beginning to apply the K.I.S.S. principal with my climbing set-up. Cut out the clutter and keep the gear in good condition.
Now who wants to join me for some free-hanging body rappels?
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jstan
climber
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Oct 27, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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On my first visit to the Valley T.M. told of one wall climber's finding a bit of masking tape on his new 1" swami, after reaching the top. The story may have just been for local colour. Great story in any event and definitely possible.
Cheers,
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