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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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May 23, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
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I don't have much doubt that people emulate others. My very first trip to Stoney Point was a case in point. I don't know how I found out about Stoney exactly - it had to be one of the Sierra Club Schedule books I remember my Mother finding for me. My Mother took me out there one afternoon and just dropped me off. There was nobody there that I can remember except that there was a climber climbing up the far left-hand main crack system on the main face - and he was unroped. Not knowing any better I promptly found my way up to it and climbed it myself - unroped! Thinking back now, even before that we only used the ropes to rappel and not to climb, but this was my longest climb so far.
I started climbing with a friend out in the very far west end of the San Fernando Valley ( not the usual spots and before discovering the Stoney culture around 1967) and we would climb up things and find horns of rock we could put our ropes around and lower down from. I think my main inspiration at the time was that Spencer Tracy movie 'The Mountain'. We went to the hardware store and bought large nails and big washers and about 1/2" white nylon rope. I can't remember the type of hammer I may have had - something from the tool shed no doubt. The washers I figured I could pound into horizontal cracks to stand on. I never really used those much - or the nails! After discovering Stoney we would even rappel off of Rock 1 by hooking our rope around that squared off encyclopedia sized bollard-like flake near the top. Finally I took the Sierra Club RCS class in 1968.
It's a 'Monkey See - Monkey Do' world.....no doubt about it. Even if somebody sees a base-jump movie, and they are not particularly moved to do that, they may be moved to finally go jump that freight train they've been thinking about!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 23, 2015 - 07:54pm PT
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^^^ Great story:)
Precisely forwards my point. Reason might get us to the crag, with a full rack, rope, and a picnic basket. And reason may keep us within our jurisdiction of ability for which rte we choose to be safe, and fearless. But if we're to step into the unknown, and push beyond our perceived level of ability. We must grab onto what Base104 calls "willful ignorance" and leave at the base facts like, "this rte is 2 number grades above anything i've done before" or, "if i climb without a rope, one mistake i die".
Does Reason even exist inside our actual experience? Does it have ANYTHING to do with movement/motion at all?
i gotta believe it's "willful Will" that gets us to the top of the Mountain, and to one day walk on Mars.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 24, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
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Blueblockr I think that's on the right track, or at least another valid track from what we believe is the omnisicience/omnipotence of our rational belief creation processes.
As zbrown (maybe :-) said, it's too expensive for us to gather all of the information and exhaustively compute the "correct" result. That's not what we do. Instead, our beliefs support us acting in a heuristic manner - not in an exhaustive rational computational manner. When a fly ball is hit to us in left field, we don't exhaustively compute the speed and trajectory and our responding vector to catch the ball and then implement that vector. We just start running in the right direction, and then change speed and direction based on our next observation.
That's the style of behavior that our belief creation processes support. We succeed or fail by acting. We also gain more information by acting. Are we going to catch the ball or come up a little short? We don't necessarily know when we start running, and sometimes we can only learn it by hitting the ground.
The way our beliefs work to our advantage is that they inspire and support our behaviors. We have a heuristic method of behaving by bootstrapping our behaviors by just making up a belief using whatever information happens to be available (praise Jesus!) and then using all kinds of wacky belief processes to support our heuristic. Like the probability of bachar falling example. We believe in the truth of our own beliefs, and seek to confirm them however we can. So we make up a belief that the risk is one in a million, then we pull out a random million feet measure, then misuse an understanding of random variables to confirm our belief that our belief was true. Wow look at that self - my beliefs are always true - I really do understand this reality stuff! Let's jump ...
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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May 24, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
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The young do not know enough to be prudent, therefore they attempt the impossible - and acheive it, generation after generation.
Pearl S. Buck
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 24, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
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One poster mentioned that it is often the experienced middle aged guy who kills himself in a high risk sport, Bachar being a classic example. It is similar to the syndrome that makes an older boxer believe that he can make a "come back."
As we age, the mind still remembers, and has the patterns of what we could do in our physical prime. There is then a disconnect between what we believe we can do, and what our body actually does. This creates a false sense of security and a greater degree of risk. In that sense, experience does not lead to a higher degree of safety.
It is, in a way similar to an in experienced youth emulating his "hero", only in this instance the older guy is emulating his "hero" i.e. his younger self.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 24, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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If you have had considerable success it's hard to back down as middle age approaches. Layton Kor used to say that one should know one's limitations. Easier said than done as one continues to experiment in this regard.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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May 25, 2015 - 06:56am PT
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The other day I played soccer for the first time in 30??? 40??? years. Man, talk about a reality check! My current self is not up to imitating my past self. I can run pretty well on trails, but all that starting, stopping and acceleration is murder. My ankles were not happy afterwards.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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May 26, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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Regarding the original post:
It all started for me when I came across a copy of The White Spider in the library in my little Oklahoma small town at the impressionable age of 14. That book is about the history of attempts on the North Face of the Eiger both prior to the first ascent, when it seemed to kill anyone who even went up on that thing. It all seemed so glorious, and very different from normal sports. I started climbing as soon as I could filch a rope from someone's garage and got a copy of Basic Rockcraft. Many of my friends have similar stories.
I must have read it 10 times before I returned it. All these guys trying to do what seemed impossible, and dying like flies in the process. One of my biggest regrets is never having done it. I had one good chance at it ten years later, in top form and all, but the weather had other ideas. Never went back to Chamonix, which isn't that far from the Eiger.
People dying never slowed me down with climbing. Some deaths can be avoided. Screwups with gear and that kind of stuff. Some deaths can't be avoided, such as rock or serac fall, and all you can do is climb fast to try to minimize it.
I can say without qualification that up until my early 30's, death seemed like something that would happen to other guys, and even then, if your number is up, it is up, and I would solo right at my top ability.
No way could I think that way now. I'm old and conditioned by society.
As a youth, I couldn't care less about risk, more or less. I suppose that is why 19 year olds make the best soldiers. Sure, death is there. Somehow it seems like it will happen to the other guy, and like the book The Right Stuff, they died because they screwed up. Which of course I would never do, or rather believed it fully until I became a father.
Becoming a father totally changed my view of risk. I wanted to BE a father, and that involved living. I gave up climbing and BASE by the time my son was two.
What I'm trying to say is that young people don't view death like the old. To them it is an abstract thing, and it won't happen to you. Not one time did I think that I was going to get hurt on any BASE jump. Luckily, I didn't get hurt soloing or BASE jumping, but they really lost appeal when I became responsible for someone else.
Somebody mentioned Dean and Steph Davis. They divorced quite a while back. She married Mario Richard, a super skilled paraglider pilot and BASE jumper. He was killed not too long ago on a wingsuit jump. I think that she still jumps, but I bet she has a story to tell.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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May 26, 2015 - 08:36pm PT
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I think that she still jumps, but I bet she has a story to tell. She does indeed and she tells it with stunning poise and clarity:
"Choosing to Fly" - Steph Davis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR9dbjubfuU
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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May 26, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
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An important factor among many skilled adventurers is the need to define what is possible on individual terms and not to live under the standards of the established experts.
Emulation is a first step towards bigger adventures...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 27, 2015 - 06:21am PT
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Getting to the top is optional, getting back down is obligatory.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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May 27, 2015 - 10:20am PT
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Some deaths can't be avoided.
Thanks for your post. Probably very similar to many of our experiences. But not sure I agree. Isn't that exactly why you stopped climbing and BASE when you became a dad - to avoid those kinds of deaths? Nicely done!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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May 27, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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Getting whacked really never occurred to me until much later. I did a stupid thing on an antenna jump, using a fast skydiving canopy. I opened off heading and flew through the wires. I managed to miss hitting one, barely, but when I hit the ground I felt fear for probably the first time in my life.
I'm talking about real fear, and I wouldn't have felt it if I didn't have a 2 year old at home to raise.
Before that, I would do anything. After that I only skydived from planes. I eventually gave that up because it was too expensive, but I made 1300 jumps.
It boggles my mind how modern BASE jumpers can regularly make a thousand BASE jumps. Obviously the gear is much better. Part of it is kind of like climbing. You read, hear, or know about somebody who did something and they got whacked. You simply refine your systems, be it climbing, sailing, or skateboarding. It isn't rocket science.
To make it to a thousand you must be doing it damn near every day, and Dean had just been in Europe where he did 200 flights, from what I have heard. I'm pretty sure that he had made it to 1000.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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May 27, 2015 - 10:57am PT
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Serge Couttet, ex Chamonix guide told me once, "the mountain will always be there".
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Hey I gathered another data point yesterday that I hope is at least tangentially on topic :-)
My son and I were hiking up Yosemite Falls trail and were just getting to the first overlook with the railing on the trail below the base of the upper falls. I heard someone say "hey there!" I didn't really see anyone nearby so thought "whatever". Then they said "how's your hike going?" Again, no-one nearby, thought maybe it was someone trying to attract my attention from a perch in a tree or something, so didn't even bother to look around for them - I was enjoying my own experience. Then I heard them laugh. We arrived at the overlook 30 seconds later and there was a hang glider making a turn back towards our location. He turned straight back towards us standing at the top of the cliff, and then as he was heading towards us, looked at us, laughed again, and then made a turn and banked back away from the cliff maybe 50 feet or so in front of us.
Now I don't really know what he was thinking - at present my external remote neural sensing capabilities are limited to the human sensor I have in my brain - but my sense of the interaction was that he was actively soliciting our participation in his experience. He purposefully called out to us so that we would notice him, and maybe partly because he thought we would enjoy it (ie to affect our experience) then he banked his hang glider in towards the cliff directly at us, then banked away. Maybe he would have done that even if we weren't there, but there definitely seemed to be a "look ma no hands" quality to his behavior. Of course if he hadn't successfully made the turn away from the cliff he would have crashed into it and fallen to his extreme disadvantage. It didn't seem like he was doing it in a zen meditative style solely for the glory of facing down the arbitrary risk of his extreme sport. Given that he repeatedly solicited our attention, despite our display of ambivalence, it seemed like we and our presence were affecting his neural processing and decisions and behaviors.
It looked like fun. We watched him soar out over the valley and land in the meadow. My son said that he hoped that he would be brave enough to do that some day. I told him that I hoped that he would be brave enough too, but not feel like he needed to do it. But I think that we're more than just our individual selves, and whether or not he needs to do it will depend a lot on the rest of us and our interactions with each other.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jul 30, 2018 - 02:44pm PT
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, . , . , . , . ,so much of what we love to do has no point.
Climbing is not all fun, for much of the time it is about finding a balance; relative to the suffering.
We just love to do it, & so pursue climbing as long and robustly as we can . . .
deleted it.
most of it was incoherent anyway.
Edit:
No Fear I think?
My self-deprecating bullsh#t?, well, I don't know what to call it?
Don't know what to call it? No, thats isn't right either.
While it would seem to many, given i'm so so stiff & wide, lurching, no vertical ballet, would be to my embarrassment.
& stupid/pointless to most.
I am having fun, it is fun.
The stupid risk is a part of this, when you add the cord the thing changes,
& yes, I do gnow better.
still as I said I'm in love with climbing & it has loved me back.
A mans' gotta gnow his limitations[Click to View YouTube Video] um,stupid ? yup ! so; kinda . . . .
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jul 31, 2018 - 10:40am PT
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John Long's own essay about free soloing in J-Tree has an element of cavalier bravado. Good times but also contributes to the mythology and marketing.
I've been watching each generation competing to outdo the reigning extreme sport stars and observing the collateral damage long enough to be convinced that marketing hype and self aggrandizement have contributed to countless spinal injuries and deaths.
Climbing is better balanced when it retains it's Semper Farcisimus.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jul 31, 2018 - 11:13am PT
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For this to be a viable theory there must be some evidence that somewhere, at some time - either in BASE, highlining or free soloing - people have tried to ape the feats of their heros and have died in the process.
Here's a more gentle version... with just roped rock climbing albeit in situations of questionable safety.
As a more impressionable youngster, John Long's hilarious stories of grim situations were definitely a factor in motivating me to push myself closer to harm's way in pursuit of living gloriously on the edge. Of course I had my own demons and passions and tendencies to push the envelope in my own way relative to my capabilities and training/experience, but reading the stories that John wrote had a way of normalizing what I might have otherwise tried to curtail in my personality. It was like discovering a tribe that embraced and celebrated that part of me that other people around me feared and discouraged or at least coped with through nervous laughter.
One piece that I didn't internalize as a youngster, was just how much time the folks in the stories I admired actually spent on the rocks, building the strength and endurance and skills and perceptions/reactions that altered the equation of real risk. As a part-time wannabe, I was comparing myself to folks in these situations when I was completely unrealistic and ignorant about the differences in their conditioning and capabilities versus my own. So perhaps, the folks sharing these hilarious stories might in retrospect find a way to communicate just how wide is the gap between the heroes of the stories and the average Joe or even an exceptional Joe heading out for a weekend on the rocks.
So consider me one light-weight anecdote for you John. I think the effect of glamorizing dangerous pursuits does shift the needle in a direction that will lead more people to die doing stupid stuff. But it's just a part of the equation. I don't think that sharing crazy/stupid or calculatedly expert adventures should be curtailed, but the real capabilities of the people in these situations should be emphasized when they are exceptional. That, combined with parental training and feedback from friends to help with perspective and balance... should be enough to take precautions that manage risk. But in the end, as adults we must accept the consequences of decisions we make about how to live our lives. The more we want to get out of life, the more effort we have to put in and the more we have to have at risk. And it doesn't always work out the way we hope.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 31, 2018 - 01:06pm PT
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John Long's classic piece on almost blowing it in JT by missing that sequence when he was with Bachar, that made me not want to free solo!!
So it can go both ways. Alex Honnold doesn't have a normal fear mechanism in his brain, but is sounds like John Long does.
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nafod
Boulder climber
State college
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Jul 31, 2018 - 04:12pm PT
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The implied message here is that Cliff Bar feared that unwitting people, or at any rate, folks not up to the challenge, might look at what Potter and Honnold et al are doing (or were doing) and would be encouraged to try it themselves and die terribly in the process.
Zero doubt in my mind that it happens, and have seen it in aviation. The problem is when “I do this because I am a master” becomes “I am a master because I do this”, which are not the same statements.
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