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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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self imposed rock climbing related ethics / terminology fixation was so last generation...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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. . . modern climbing ethics as practiced at the top of the sport.
In addition to the point about what constitutes ethics, above, the concept of "top of the sport" implies a method of measuring the heirarchy of the sport. The touchiness of the defenders of an expanded definition of redbpoint comes from a desire to measure that heirarchy in a way that maximizes the status of their preferred style of climbing.
The attempt to diminish the importance of traditional styles of climbing in calculating that heirarchy seems, to me, an admission that those who ascend a climb of a particular rating with a more traditional style achieve something more difficult that someone who does a climb with the same rating, but using the sport climbing style. Otherwise, why the whining?
John
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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May 7, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
. . . modern climbing ethics as practiced at the top of the sport.
In addition to the point about what constitutes ethics, above, the concept of "top of the sport" implies a method of measuring the heirarchy of the sport. The touchiness of the defenders of an expanded definition of redbpoint comes from a desire to measure that heirarchy in a way that maximizes the status of their preferred style of climbing.
The attempt to diminish the importance of traditional styles of climbing in calculating that heirarchy seems, to me, an admission that those who ascend a climb of a particular rating with a more traditional style achieve something more difficult that someone who does a climb with the same rating, but using the sport climbing style. Otherwise, why the whining?
John
John, the argument works both ways. Forcing the term "redpoint" onto a subgroup of climbers who do not recognize or value the term is itself also an attempt to force the hierarchy of the traditional style of climbing. The sport climber does not recognize the value of that traditional hierarchy (at least in the context of sport climbing) and would argue that the extra effort spent on placing gear/clipping draws to bolts would be much better served by just climbing a harder route. It all comes down to what type of "difficulty" you value.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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John, That last paragraph is beautiful!
It all comes down to what type of "difficulty" you value.
Indeed, so why the whining?
Because, climbing style rules are after all random and essentially meaningless and, other than how they allow us to structure our experience of climbing to our satisfaction, they aren't important.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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the reason I quit caring about this long ago was because
1) you have no choice where you will clip that bolt. you do have a choice where the gear goes in. height deprived people have a disadvantage thus pre-clipped is important. also I know i've up routes where I try to get the bolt as high as I can so as to reduce possible of ankle breakers.
2) It's easier to clip the bolts and easier to clip the draw (vs placing and clipping gear). Thus the difficulty vs. placing gear is often massive. by nit-picking at this one diminishes the difficulty of gear climbs. they should not be lumped. Because nobody really cares if you are clipping the draws that are already there. but any lead climber worth his salt knows the real difference in clipping pre-placed pro. The latter is hardly a "send" but the former nobody really disputes.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Weak delete JLP
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Weak delete JLP I can put it back, it wasn't a response to your post. It was a realization that I was repeating what I've already said to a bunch of people whose opinions have no value to me.
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ruppell
climber
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There's only two rules in climbing:
1) Don't fuk up and die.
2) See rule #1.
So as long as you can remember those climb in whatever style you want. I hold myself to a high standard. I don't expect everyone else to do the same.
Like the guy I saw the other day who "lead" this 10a. After bolt to bolting it he got down and was super stoked about his accomplishment. He bragged to his buddy belaying him and even had the balls to say how he was a 5.10 climber. I was gonna set him straight but then it hit me. The draw his buddy dropped while TRing.
In that moment I realized that some people aren't in the sport for the same reasons I am. Some people want bragging rights or admiration from there friends. Some want exercise. Some want to hang out with fit chicks in sports bras. Some wanna be the next Sharma or Caldwell. Some are just along for the ride. Some just want their photo taken so they can post it on Facebook.
I don't know what group this guy fell into. So, I laced up my shoes and proceeded to onsight an 10+ just to the right of him and his buddy. My partner elected not to climb it so I stripped the draws. When I got down he asked really eagerly how hard that climb was. "Oh, it's only 5.10" I said. With that I walked away to climb some more.
So what's the point of this story you are asking by now. Well, for one, I'm a dick. But more importantly, it's just climbing. None of us are changing the world. If that guy wants to call himself a 5.10 climber after hangdogging easy 10 then so be it. I never will.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Ruppell, indeed.
Add rule #3 - Leave the playground in good shape so everyone can have a good time when they do their thing.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Makes sense. Pink is a watered down version of red
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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What if you're old and can't remember anything, could every ascent be a redpoint?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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After a certain age point they are all heraclituspoints, Todd.
Frankly, most aspire to be the next Jaybro, but that's a high standard indeed!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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There is no doubt that hanging your own the draws adds dificulty to the climb but regardless the majority of climbers these days just call it a redpoint regardless.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Next thing you know someone will try and sell a top rope as a first ascent. No wonder less cultured people chose to burn divergents at the stake.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The wankers have allready done that. I simply flat out refuse to aknowledge any top rope as an FA be it mine or anyone elses. top rope is practice for the FA but it is not the FA in my book.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Yes Tradman. It's a FA that somebody forgot to lead and therefore is only a dream waiting to become reality. Like trying to make a baby masturebating, may be fun, but no kid with a name of your choosing is going to be running around or up for adoption.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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After a certain age point they are all heraclituspoints, Nice one! Heraclitus made some great points, indeed!
"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."
~ Heraclitus
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Another tempest in a teapot....carry on.
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