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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2006 - 07:14pm PT
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Steve, there are lots of different stainless steels to choose from. I don't know enough about them to give an exact reference, but maybe another ST camper can help.
410 grades have a mild surface corrosion--rust--that might take the shine off your hardware without causing pitting. Also 'rouging' occurs in most stainless steels in certain environments. Rouging discolors the surface--rust--without affecting the resistance to pitting. Also the surface finish has a big impact on the surface corrosion--in stainless steels, shiny surfaces are more resistant to corrosion, but in the absence of pitting there is no lose of integrity.
Anyone a metallurgists?
Roger
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Steve, Kevin: You may want to donate one of the pinbolts to Ken for the museum. Which may save him "acquiring" it by other means.... :-)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I had a bried talk with Ron about Space Babble a number of years back. Told him it was a shame that more folks couldn't get on the route. He was OK with adding bolts at the time and considered doing it himself, but I was lazy and didn't want to start a fuss or a slippery slope, and I didn't know how to get ahold of you either.
Fixing the anchors and having some pro where the FA had pins would be a good compromise. Ron seems to still visit that face traverse (or at least he's filmed it in detail for "Ascending Rhythmn" (Highly recommended) and I bet he'd be stoked to go play.
I remember the 5.10 and 5.9 pitches being pretty solid and the wall pretty clean. You might survive a 100 foot fall up there if the belay was Ok.
Peace
karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Kevin and Buzz, the prototypes shown are a mild grade 3/16" stainless and I have not had a chance to performance test them. To be absolutely clear to everyone involved in retrobolting anywhere, under any circumstance, the bolts and hangers definitely have to be stainless steel for reasons of longevity. The material overkill on the Leeper replica and pinbolts gives me every confidence in their lasting integrity and strength.
As I mentioned earlier, coloring the metal is something I am still working out. The simple fact that no rust would be generated is a huge advantage of stainless. Chromoly steel pitons all suffer from stress fracturing and for that reason, will not yield a pinbolt with the same service life as an all stainless assembly.
One other installation option for the pinbolts that comes to mind if the rock is exceptionally good would involve driving the pinbolt, marking a hole, removing or shifing it away from the hole, and installing a 3/8" stainless drop in type anchor. This type of anchor requires a shallow 1/2" hole and relies on a setting tool to expand the back of the threaded insert left behind. The pitonbolt would then be pounded back into position and the 3/8" cap screw installed once the holes realign.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Jorge, Kev,
I have done Jigsaw now three times. The first was with you two.
Being the relative Middle novice at the time (I must thank you both for opening my eyes to Middle and inviting me to participate on some awesome climbs) you guys would give me the "privilege" of leading a lot of the pitches. I remember feeling like a guinea pig...With a smirk on your faces you would say, "Here you go Chappy, your lead!" I got to lead that last 5.11 pitch among others. You guys had been up there before and wandered somewhere up and left and then back right and wanted to do a more direct finish. The variations joined up at a broken knife blade at the last 5.10 section. I believe the second time was with you Kev along with John Middendorf?? We were making an attempt on that line up the middle of the N. Face. Wasn't that when you climbed that last pitch variation on a TR? John couldn't do the 5.11 and led the pitch via the original line. Or so I remember...We climbed that awesome 10a corner for the first time on that attempt. I went up there with Shaggy as well making another attempt on that same face ("Jason and the Largonots") Jay led that 5.11 section on our ascent (as well as most of the other pitches). I couldn't do the crux...I was pissed. I had these really mushy Huecos on and they would just melt off the little crux bead you had to stand on. Give me some stiff shoes!! I remember being a little impressed by what we did all those years ago. We got pretty far before being stopped by a somewhat blank section below an arching corner/roof. There were some mysterious bolts up above. Who placed them and how I don't know. Fun times back then...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Hey Mark,
That crux sequence on Jigsaw was only rated 5.10d if I remember correctly and stopped me cold. I recall a spooky Clevenger hanger and being totally unable to leave the narrow ledge that it was placed from despite trying every trick in the book with my feet. It is still on my list busted blades and all.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Steve,
Howdy! Its been a while. Its hard to remember everything from those days. I do, however, remember being impressed with your no chalk ascents. To tell you the truth I don't remember what we rated it back then. Are you thinking of the variation that we did to the right or the original route up to the ledge on the left?? I like your ideas on preserving the original look and feel of a routes such as S.B. It sounds like a labor of love but some routes are worth it.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve,
Your SS pinbolts are interesting and beautiful, but probably quite difficult to install (on Space Babble p1 + higher) to meet your goals of protection that visually blends with the rock.
1. To minimize visible metal, you want to have the pins driven up to the eye under the flakes, right? You may need to manufacture a large number of lengths and thicknesses to accomplish this, since the cracks will vary.
2. A key assumption is that the crack under the flake is in the same plane as the rock surface below the flake, so that the piton head will lie flat against the rock. If this is not the case, and the piton sticks out from the rock, the bolt portion will be visible and will not look nice.
Personally, I think you could accomplish the desired minimum visual impact by using Petzl Coeur hangers in the spots where the piton eyes would be. They have similar dimensions to the eye of the CMI replica you made.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 13, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
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Hi Mark-
I remember that attempt with you and Kevin on Middle. I was in awe of climbing with some of my Yosemite Heroes. We planned to spend a couple days up there, and hauled bags up the slabs. But then we spent the night up there on some bushy ledge, and I got eaten by mosquitoes all night, and was a sleepless mess by morning. I think we bailed early on day 2, thinking we would stock up on mossie repellant and try it again later. Ah well...
During that climb, I remember looking over at El Cap with its clean hauls and mosquito free bivys, and longing for it. But it was great to climb with you guys! It helped me see what was possible, and kicked me into gear for one-day ascents!
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Dec 13, 2006 - 08:07pm PT
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John,
Good to hear from you! That was a fun little adventure. Its flattering you think so highly of Kevin and I. We were just like you and so many others who followed, just living the Valley life. We were lucky to be there at a happening time in the Valleys history. I always felt like a lightweight on our attempt. I didn't really push myself. I think by that time I had seen better days as a climber!I still think that line would be a good one. Sort of surprised no one has done it. It sure looked like it might all go free. As I mentioned I did go back with Shaggy and reclimbed to the top of that cool pinnacle and then we attempted the cleaner looking variant to the right. Shaggy was on the sharp end for pretty much everything. We(he!)got shutdown by a blank (though not necessarily impossible) section. Never made it to those clean corners that take you up to the N. Face traverse ledges. And then there were those mysterious bolts... Don't know what's up with them. Some great new climbing potential up there unless someones done it. Who knows maybe someone will chime in about it. Hey, anyway all the best to you and I will keep an eye out for your S.Taco comments.
Mark
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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Classic shot of Middle Rock.
Two views of the beautiful rust colored shield on the East Buttress bolt ladder crux pitch. This pitch at 5.10c is a full value onsight and rather devious!
Starting the long traverse pitch midway up the EB in the early 70's. Stylish hats were somehow more common in the old days!
The Central Pillar Of Frenzy with its classic second pitch overhang.
Here's a rarity for you Middle freaks! Any body ever do the direct start to the CPOF? Pete Livesey's original baby blue topo guide to Yosemite Valley has the pitch rated at 5.11d and my memory is that it was very hard and a real thriller.
Movin' and groovin' on the clean stone.
About thirty feet short of the belay was a fixed wedge Lost Arrow in a tiny corner which protected the right angling crux traverse. My partner, Rich Thompson, took all these pictures and was in the habit of foregoing belay concerns for a better photo opportunity. He was well away from the base when I took a twenty five foot whipper onto the lonely Arrow. Not much else around for pro so the fall was a hard one and Rich got hauled through the rocks to his proper belaying spot. I managed to make the moves on the second go and continued on up.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2006 - 12:14am PT
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I did it too (direct start), but I cheated, I used a top rope. Kevin and Steve you trying to kill me with those crazy ass leads on Middle?
On a serious note though you guys did some beautiful leads, thanks.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 25, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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Just trying to blow a little air up your skirt Maestro Braun, that's all!
Kevin, I get the impression that the Bird didn't really care for this dicey face stuff. Do you remember anything about the creation of the blue Livesey topo guide? That's way back in time but I always was fascinated that an outsider would go to that kind of effort. Happy holidays everybody and more mantle insurance for all!
The scolding from AM is truely funny considering he came from Groundfall central.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 25, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
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I have a copy buried somewhere and I bet the C4 notebook was the basis for it. I wonder if Pete pinched it?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 25, 2006 - 10:32pm PT
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From the shots included here, "Jigsaw" (5.11a) and "Black Primo" (5.11b) are obviously great lines. Looked 'em up in the Reid Yosemite Climbs: Free Climbs and noticed on p. 295 that they both only have one quality star. How so? Is it because the 1/4 bolts are bad? Always heard from word of mouth that both routes were ultimates of their type and angle. It seems as though bolt-protected face climbs are consistently assigned lower quality ratings than cracks. Bias?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 26, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
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Kinda like "my best vacation is your worst nightmare!"
I wonder if Donny has done most of the Middle Rock testpieces? Out of curiosity, how many stars does Rainbow Bridge muster?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 26, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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One star, page 286 of the Reid Yo Free Climbs (1994). Remember that Cantwell, S. Burke and I fell for the better part of an afternoon before C. Cantwell finally got the crux section up to the belay near dusk. 40 lead falls?
TRed the direct on CP of F once. Didn't seem that bad on TR, but thinking about a lead put it in a class by itself as far as sheer terror was concerned. 11d with a bolt and a long fall is one thing. 11d with a grounder is "quite another kettle of fish, Ollie," to quote Oliver Hardy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2006 - 01:56pm PT
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Rainbow Bridge seemed like a fine route (I had to bail at the last bolt) but probably loses points for having a crux that's all out of proportion with the rest of the climb.
Maybe if that last bolt was beefy enough for folks to feel safe about belaying from, folks could climb it as a 'moderate' 5.11 while they wait in the line for Central Pillar
Peace
Karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 26, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
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Karl: RB has been a vue flashed (unless climbers are all liars).
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