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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:28am PT
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"If you simply can't be bothered to see beyond your own needs and consider your impact, ....."
That my dear is a very dangerous statement.
Everyone is doing that, knowingly or unknowingly even Steve.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:19am PT
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I still say it's overkill to analyze one pin placement, but one aspect from previous threads which is not mentioned much in this thread is the concept that "the rock changes" (especially in sandstone). I haven't climbed the pitch in question, so I'm in no position to judge this explanation, but it's plausible to me.
It's also possible that the "blind nut placement" is a long reach to the lip of the roof, and if Ammon is not as tall as John Fowler, maybe he can't make that move without first putting in a pin in between. Chris Mac thought it might go clean by equalizing two tiny slider nuts.
I am very much guessing on these, so I feel it's unfair to slam Ammon or his explanation from our PCs a year after the pin placement that some people seem so upset about. Nobody else here has actually done this pitch, right?
[Edit: addiroid did it and used the pin - see his posts above and below, also Ultrabiker did it in 1995, see his post below - thanks to them for shedding some direct light on the question]
Quotes and references to other posts on supertopo are given below to explain the above.
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Timeline:
October 2003: John Fowler ("WideCrackJack") does the first clean ascent of Cosmic Trauma.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=25610&msg=25739#msg25739
Ammon witnesses it, and congratulates him. John also posts beta on the cruxes:
"There are probably two cruxes. The first is at the top of the corner on the second A3 pitch, blind nut placement to a beak/crack'n'up placement. The second crux is the hooking on the A3+ pitch."
December 2005: Ammon and Chris Mac do a one day ascent of the route. Chris Mac posts his trip report.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=127935&msg=127935#msg127935
Chris freely offers:
"The route was rated A3 but we knew it had gone clean once. He led the first aid pitch clean. On the second aid pitch, he nailed one bugabook (big knifeblade). This would be the only hammered placement on the route. I think you can do that one move clean if you equalize the tinyest slider nuts. Or maybe you can do one sketchy free move around it?"
Chris' topo here:
http://www.supertopo.com/topos/obscurities/cosmic_trauma.jpg
September 8, 2006. In the "fixed ropes to sickle?" thread, Mimi asks Ammon to "please explain to the community why you recently nailed a section of sandstone in Zion that had gone clean"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=249148&msg=250692#msg250692
Ammon's response:
"You must be talking about Cosmic Trauma. It has gone clean once, I was climbing Spaceshot when they were on it.
Yes, I put one piton in after I tried everything else. I've talked to two other parties since the clean ascent and they had to use the same pin, in the same place. The rock changes!"
And an excerpt from his later response at the end of that same thread:
"Anyway, one of the parties I've talked to since the clean ascent said they placed 8-10 pitons"
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This seems like a reasonable explanation of the misunderstanding to me - Mimi seems to think that once a sandstone route has gone clean, it will continue to go clean. Ammon says the rock changes, most likely [my inference] because it was nailed again in the span of two years between the first clean ascent and his ascent. Earlier in the thread, Mimi blames Ammon for the nailing (of the one pin) that will presumably prevent future clean ascents. It seems that Mimi doesn't trust Ammon or doesn't understand the possibly unclear timing of the other ascents where it was nailed.
I'm all for promoting clean climbing (as are most people), but I doubt the Ammon-bashing is the right approach. Maybe that move on Cosmic Trauma will become a highly sought testpiece as people try their luck on the move that Ammon couldn't get to go clean. Maybe a lot more pins will get placed there as other people fail. Or maybe they will go hammerless and back off if they can't get it to go clean. I'm curious to see, even though no firm conclusion can be drawn on the one pin placement, since the rock may change again in the meantime (it's sandstone). I'm all for accepting Ammon's judgement that he didn't think he could do it clean and his challenge to others to try it and see what they can do.
Steve Grossman said several parties have done it without pounding. Well, name them and when they did it.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 13, 2006 - 07:24am PT
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You know, I agree (98%) with Fattrad's post of 12:17pm yesterday (post 85?), perhaps the first time I have really ever agreed with Fattrad.
As much as I'd like to, as a 5.10/5.11? climber I am probably never going to free El Cap (or other) routes that have been freed (by a handful of individuals) but I'd still like to do those routes. Am I prevented from doing them if I have to use aid where somebody else was able to climb free?
Of course not, as not any one of us alone owns that rock, so it is in the public domain. However, I also belong to a community and I would like to adhere to that community's standards as much as possible, for ethical reasons, for style, for decorum, as well as to avoid any grief said community may give to me if I transgress in any manner.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 13, 2006 - 08:23am PT
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sheeesh mimi,
i was wondering when/if you were going to join and bring that kind, sensitive, female touch we a%%holes were all lacking. thanks for joining.
i dont think this is about the free thing. it is about climbing with minimum impact. in fact, i wold o so far as to say once he route goes clean, protection bolts should not be added as well. but then i would be assuming mr SG's point.
ron has been decrying route preservation on this site for a while now. if he cn just get his a&& out of bed and ave some coffey...
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addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 08:35am PT
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"Nobody else here has actually done this pitch, right?" (Clint Cummings)
I have done that pitch.
And I did try to use the slider nut (only one, didn't equalize but read further) about 10-12 times, each and every time it pulled with about 1/4 of body weight. I may not be as dainty as Mimi's sweet self, but at 180 pounds + light rack I am pretty average. I think we knew it had gone clean. I THINK. Not sure, brain's a bit foggy from electrophysiology class now.
Anyways, yes it is just one pin and we should try to get it clean as possible. But when all else doesn't work, ya nail. We do try as best as possible to get everything clean, but both my climbing partner and I have girlfriends and a lot of student loan debt to be paid back. And you can't DO either of those from a wheelchair.
And PITON RON: Yes, I said "softly". As in, "not heavy" pounding. Ya see, I sit for about 12 hours a day now in grad school and have become much more LIGHT than my construction days 3 years ago. I am not capable of anything over "soft" nailing.
If anyone has done this route let them speak up or forever remain behind their keyboard talking sh#t. I say again, Ammon and company had much less impact by doing it in a day even with the questionable pin placement than the rest of us mere mortals who take 2 days to do it and drag a haul bag up the entire route!!!
Just a little advice on the last pitch - Don't go right!! The whole mountain is falling off of itself!!! We got to shuttle loads up an entire ropelength of dirt and huge sliding blocks. But that's what you get when you lead at night on 4th class. Beautiful weather in January though last year.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:48am PT
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". . . but both my climbing partner and I have girlfriends and a lot of student loan debt to be paid back. And you can't DO either of those from a wheelchair."
here's the arguement again. what i fail to see here is the difference between sinking a bolt and sinking a pin. both are done to increase safety b/c people are scared.
i'm not attacking ammon here, i don't think this one incident is that imporant. i'm just curious about the nature this thought process.
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:56am PT
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how on earth can you fail to see the diffrence between in a pin and a bolt???
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:09am PT
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think long term, not all rock is DL hard. one pin placement in sugarland can be the dif. btwn a useable placment and non.
in zion, both change the rock permanantly, one is accpeted by many of the aid climbers on the forum, the other is disagreeable to all. both are ostensibly placed to save one's skin as it were.
if the pin is crap, why use that instead of a crap clean placement? b/c it's not crap, that's why you're pounding it in, remember? if this is the case, why not make it permanant instead of giving us another "softball scar" placement(see Zenyatta Entrada for examples).
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Euroford
Trad climber
Chicago, IL
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:25am PT
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i understand what your getting at, but i still draw a major and obvious philisophical and practical diffrence between bolts and pins.
a pin placement, with proper execution of technique will become a clean placement. with as i see it, only a minor amount of modification and still greatly preserves, or even enhances, the challange of a climb.
a bolt placement is an immediate and extreme defacement which can never be a clean placement and immediatly removes the challange.
i'm not a militant against bolts type, but i certainly don't back this "bolt it to preserve the knifeblade crack" bs.
if a placement takes a pin, it takes a pin, until such time as it takes a nut. or the pin should remain fixed. if soembody fuks it up and blows the placement apart this is a tragedy that can only be prevented through education and skill.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:33am PT
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Hi Trashman,
You have put your finger on the primary issue that needs to be resolved between the way nailer's think about bolts and the way clean climbers (at least some of them) think about bolts.
Relative to pins, bolts are clean--they can be removed and patched over in most cases.
So, if the goal is minimize the damage to the rock, bolts are better than pins.
But, from a 'adventure' perspective bolts "Kill the impossible." Free climbers traditionally address this by placing them sparingly. Aid climbers don't have that luxury.
However, John Mittendorf, posted the rational, in the early 1980s, for drilling permanent placements when the alternative would not support multiple ascents, a marked departure from the earlier hard style. So, the idea is there. There is just no consensus on what the rule should be applied to aid climbing.
But starting the conversation requires that the two rolls of bolts--clean relative to pins and "killing the impossible" relative to aid, has to be recognized. Otherwise, everyone is talking past each other.
Roger
Edited
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:36am PT
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I think euro and trash are approaching this from different perspectives. On soft sandstone (ie: Fisher Towers) it it does not take much to blow out the placements.
When I climbed the Titan in 1983 or so, it already had huge holes. I think you guys both have valid points but not all placements will eventually be clean (I think that is what Trashman is sayin).
So philosophically, (feck that word definitely sounds armchair like) a bolt may provide more longevity over a placement that would eventually become a worthless scar. Despite the fact that a bolt does lower the climbing level.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:38am PT
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This whole discussion has turned to into a "Bashing" pins and hammers fest rather than a challenge of Integrity to "Purity" and style of Ammon's and Chris's One Day adventure on the Trauma.
Steve's intent seems off base. As I read his original statement, it appears that he is more concerned about Ammon's "Speed Climbing" ego rather the fact that he placed one long "Boo" in what I know is a previous "Boo" scar (as there are several, there were when I ventured onto the "Trauma" in April of '95 after consulting Barry as to what should be done/carried as ammo on this A3 crux section... he advised me to take some thin long "Boo's" and tie them off after "Softly" inserting them into what now must be some obvious constructive thin scarring from the few previous ascenders, so as not to "blow" out this very critical thin seam and "create a haven for the Ravens") on this critical "Crux" section of the Trauma. I'd be willing to bet that Ammon softly placed that damn "Boo" as I did 11 years ago, with the same intent.
Trauma is a stout route and takes much thoughtful effort to accomplish what Ammon and Chris did in the time they did. These two gents are humble yet incredibly talented and only wish to share their adventures. Ego boosting doesn't appear to me to be their motives.
Regardless, it is all semantics.
If we are going to start demeaning and chastising others for minute issues such as placing one long "Boo" in an existing pin scar, as Barry advised me to do 11 years ago, than God himself strike us all down as hypocrites of integrity. I say "Hats off" to Ammon and Chris Mac...they tried and did so with integrity as they could have said they did it "Clean" and not one of us would have known. That is "Character" boys and girls and that is why I stick around this gig after 36 years!
"On the second aid pitch, he nailed one bugabook (big knifeblade). This would be the only hammered placement on the route. I think you can do that one move clean if you equalize the tinyest slider nuts. Or maybe you can do one sketchy free move around it?" From Chris Mac's TR in "SJ".
Steve, I respect your intent but I truly believe that you're a little off base and have used a single "Boo" placement as a shield to hide behind..."Speed Ascents", their validity and manner in which they are done. Isn't that what you are truly after?
Now you want to see destruction, this is what used to be a very Classic RURP/Blade seam "Test Piece" on the "River". I venture to say that Ammon's single "Boo" placement did not result in anything that closely resembles the criminal evidence that you see below! How very sad that ignorant and selfish FNG's must do this in order to boost their egos by claiming "Victory" on this A4 "Classic"! (P-2 "Artist Tears" taken on my solo ascent in May of '01).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:27pm PT
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Hawkeye,
your suggestion that safety considerations justify hammering begs the question whatever happened to "giving the mountain best"?
You COULD back off.
(in any case best not get between me and my third glass of Columbia Crest cabernet with a good steak)
Mimi,
right on! Blaze away, there's plenty of ammo.
Nefarious,
you seem to think that style and ethics are interchangable concepts. Whether or not people climb it "free from then on" DOES NOT AFFECT OTHERS the way alteration of a route DOES.
Clint Cummings,
nice timeline and analysis.
Euro,
C'mon Tim. Bolts vs pins. Clearly you are not yet aware of just how soft soft rock really is.
Roger,
this is news to me. When or where did Deuce advocate my values in the early '80s.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:42pm PT
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RONBO: I was "Surprised" when I ventured on "Trauma" in '95, that you hadn't "Cleaned it Up" so as to avoid future discussion as this one! No, this is not meant to be a spiteful inquiry rather one of simple intrigue due to it's aestheticness and knowing back then that it would become a sought after route.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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Unlike some, I don't usually feel the need to alter other people's work.
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:53pm PT
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So, Steve, once a route goes clean it shouls always go clean by every subsequent party? Completeing a climb clean should be the goal of every climber, but are you suggesting that if Ammon, yourself, or anyone else does a route clean that the other 99% of us with less talent should stay off the route unless we can do it clean? Keep your elitist delusions to yourself -- I'll climb a route in whatever style I am able to manage. I'll do it as clean as possible for my skill and talent level. If you see me nailing on the black tower some day and want to shout at me about it, feel free. Your elitist barking is going to shame me off of a route.
Calling out Ammon for something like this is just freakin laughable. Here's an idea -- why don't you rope up with Ammon some time? I'll bet you don't have 1/2 his balls, nor a 10th of his talent. Get up on a route with the guy and then tell me what a bad guy he is; please, come back afterwards and try to tell the rest of us about his poor style. I'm betting you'd come back with your ass in your hand and an apology.
Ed
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:01pm PT
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"Nefarious,
you seem to think that style and ethics are interchangable concepts. Whether or not people climb it "free from then on" DOES NOT AFFECT OTHERS the way alteration of a route DOES. "
No, Ron, I don't think they're interchangable. I'm just following the example I see set her daily.
Free, aid, etc... Thos are styles of climbing. My comment is directed towards the "ethics" "debate" (what a crock), which is pretty much disgusting, cause it's usually an excuse for someone to bitch and start a bitch/whine fest or simply to sound off.
Fact is, that the logic I mention is the only way this can be called an ethic. Supposedly the ethic is that once a cleaner, better-for-the-rock method of ascent is done that is that standard, or ethic to adhere to. Climbing free, MOST DEFINITELY DOES affect others and the rock, much less then even climbing "clean". To say otherwise is a total copout and bullshit excuse as is often used here. Simple fact is that no one here can do the routes on El Cap all free, so no one is going to back the continuing of their own "ethic". Unfortunately, to do otherwise relegates what we're talking about here to a style, and not an ethic.
Regardless, it does nothing but come across as a bunch of elitist crap, with very little validity to most people. They want to hand down the rules to the folks who can't climb as well/hard as them, but don't want the select few who actually *can* climb the routes free (which leaves the least amount of trace/damage to the rock) to come down on them for climbing clean when the route has gone free. Incredibly hypocritical.
The nature of all of this dictates that this "debate" will never be settled.
Edit: Oh, and a bit of what Ed said above. This was pretty much my only reason for posting in the first place. The rest of this thread is the "same ol', same ol'"... I think you need to be able to follow another man's style and lead before you can talk sh#t about it. Kinda like the unspoken rule about not chopping a route on rappel... Talking it because you can't do it aint cool and just leaves you with your thumb in your a*# talking sh#t.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
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Disappointed with both of you.
This is not elitism based on difficulty per se, but rather the ability to climb the route in a manner that does not take away from somebody else's ability to do the same.
Nef,
how does somebody climbing free or not affect others????
You cry elitism but its a smokescreen for "I wanna do what I wanna do".
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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OK,
I need to weigh in here as an Average Joe. I admit that I enjoy reading these little scuffles between those who climb at a much higher level than I, while also feeling these arguments are rather petty in the larger scheme of things. I have never met Ammon or Steve, yet I have judged both of them based on their posts on ST. Sorry Steve, but criticizing someone's actions is judging a person regardless of your intent. As for me, I get the feeling that Ammon is a pretty "straight up" person who is honest about his actions, and is less ego-driven than many on this site. What bothers me about Steve's criticism is that he arrives at his conclusion and then condemns without asking Ammon what actually happened. I have no problem with people coming to their own conclusions and judging others, I just think debates like this would be better served if people would seek to inquire about the facts in a respecful manner prior to arriving at conclusions and firing off attacks. Carry on !!
Cracko
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Cracko,
good on ya, mate.
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