I offer an alternative to depression, anger, and emptiness.

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BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 13, 2014 - 03:01pm PT

but I can honestly say that I find peace in what you call the "lying and murderous" nature of Nature.

That's good! There is also peace within the Communist's, there's peace within the Hamas's, there's peace amongst thieves,etc. There is a type of peace amongst any collaborated mind-set! Sorry if i affended you, what i said was of MY opinion and i was only trying to relate to yours. It's not written in the bible anywhere.
limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Aug 13, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
DMT,
Ya I should have said "accurate" instead of "literal." But you're right, that's probably not the point anyway.

Not to put words in Scott's mouth but when he says "true Christian" I'd bet he means someone who loves and follows Jesus and the bible to the best of his or her abilities.

That's the kind of person anyone would be lucky to spend time with.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 13, 2014 - 03:21pm PT

A true christian is one who conducts herself to a certain standard.

If you mean by living a life modeled after Jesus, then ur right!

if you mean there are certain acts we must do, then no!

if you mean there are certain morals we must hold up, there is only 1.

Love your brother as you Love yourself.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Aug 13, 2014 - 03:24pm PT
I heard an interview on NPR yesterday with James Randi an ex-magician/entertainer who now investigates/debunks/exposes psychics, occult, and paranormal claims. I always thought people believe what they want to believe, but he said people believe what they need to believe. I thought it was interesting and enlightening. What's going to work for some isn't going to work for everyone. So often trying to convert someone isn't going to work. And we should try not to judge people for what they believe because what works for us won't necessarily work for them.

I find it strange when someone says a true Christian believes or does X. I believe if someone says they are Christian, they are Christian. Granted there are some people off the deep end who probably shouldn't be saying it, but to say a certain sect isn't Christian sounds like bigotry to me. A recipe for disaster like with the Shiite, Sunni, Muslims.

And the whole polygamy argument. Guess what you do have the right to have multiple partners, you just can't marry more than one of them. Marriage as a legal concept is a partnership between two people. Those people should be able to partner with whoever they want (to visit them in the hospital, share finances, etc.) But the people who marry multiple people are usually creepy older men abusing their power and "marrying" multiple underage girls. That is a crime and that person should go to jail.
WBraun

climber
Aug 13, 2014 - 03:26pm PT
99.9999% of those posting in this thread don't even have a clue what a "True Christian" really is.

That's why you people argue so much and then become depressed and then commit mental Seppuku with intoxicants ......
cat t.

Sport climber
CA
Aug 13, 2014 - 03:42pm PT
Revealing my naïveté about supertopo here, but...how did "working through depression" turn into "who is a true Christian"??

1) If Jesus/religion/anything else helps you through depression--awesome!! That's inspiring.
2) If Jesus/religion/anything else fails to help you through depression--it's not your fault. Depression is a tough disease to battle. It's not an easily solved problem. Keep on pushing through. There's hope.
3) If anglerfish help you through depression--you're goin' to hell. Anglerfish are of the devil for sure.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 13, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
Here in CA, a very famous Christian, Rick Warren, had a son who had a lifetime of Jesus, Christianity and prayer. Nevertheless, he took his own life. So, it doesn't necessarily work.
WBraun

climber
Aug 13, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
And they are mostly referring to behavior.


That's so right.

There was was a guy who was always angry and wanted to be cured of anger.

So he met a saintly "True Christian" who taught him the art of controlling his anger.

After several years the angry man conquered his anger and again met the saintly "True Christian" and told him he has now conquered anger.

The man invited the saintly "True Christian" to dinner that night to celebrate.

At dinner they're all happily eating and being "True Christians".

Suddenly the saintly "True Christian" tells to the man that he's a stupid retard.

The man was shocked but ignored it thinking WTF man?

Then the saintly "True Christian" told the man he's a pussy whupped idiot and has no clue.

Then the saintly "True Christian" told the man his wife is ugly and the dinner tastes like sh!t.

Suddenly the man became very angry and called the saintly "True Christian" every name in the book and told him to get the fuk outa my house.

He also told the saintly "True Christian" that he's NO saintly "True Christian".

The saintly "True Christian" said: I may or not be a saintly "True Christian" but why are YOU ANGRY ? ........
ng

Trad climber
southwest
Aug 13, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
Double thumbs-up to Flip Flop!

Religion is the greatest evil upon the earth and inflicted upon humankind.

I must recommend that all sentient beings read: 'God is Not Great' - C.Hitchens. In my Top 10 books of all time.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 13, 2014 - 04:08pm PT

Anglerfish are of the devil for sure.

No, i believe the blood of christ covers ALL His creation!
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
Pure evil for sure Tvash
skitch

climber
East of Heaven
Aug 13, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
For a second there I was thinking: "Maybe I'll give Jesus another chance???"

Then I remembered I'm going to hang with my friends tonight at the boulders, it's my gay friends anniversary today, just wouldn't feel right hanging out with people that Jesus hates.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 13, 2014 - 04:24pm PT
If you mean by living a life modeled after Jesus, then ur right!

What is that, exactly? Is it even possible?

I'm a nice guy, who doesn't follow the established order, so I guess that's me!!
nita

Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
Aug 13, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
*
Marlow..Thanks for pointing out Tobia's & Big Mikes posts..I had not seen them till just now...

Tobia, and Big Mike...Thanks so much for your insight and honesty about your struggles with depression... ..I know and Love both of you guys...
Depression is a tough road to walk.....Wishing you (tall ) men many good days/ years ahead. and keeping you both in my prayers...Saludos.

ps...Tobia, thanks, I was hoping you would write something...
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 13, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
Plural marriage should be between one man, one women, and one anglerfish.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 13, 2014 - 05:48pm PT
An overwhelming body of evidence indicates that sexuality is not a choice, but rather a naturally occuring combination of genetic, hormonal, and early environmental factors (mainly in utero).

In other words, God makes gay babies. Homosexuality has also been well documented for over 500 species, from fruit flies (get it????) to polecats (lulz!).

Sooo...what's God up to here?

Is this a test of faith, like those slyly placed dinosaur bones?

If God doesn't demand that I lay only with men, why would He demand that a gay man lay only with women?

Or do Christians KNOW its really a choice? If that is a claim - where in the Bible does it say that homosexuality is a choice? Now, I'm not asking where the Bible prohibits homosexual acts - I'm asking how Christians KNOW, against all evidence to the contrary, that this is a choice and not, ironically, God's own handiwork?

Given that He's apparently messing with us with regards to all those fossils and all, it cannot consistently be argued that he wouldn't make gay people just so He can torture them sexually.

And given that forcing someone under threat of damnation to sleep with a gender opposite to the one they're naturally attracted to is really a form of rape, does God require rape for salvation?

These are the deep theological questions I struggle with.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Aug 13, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
Sorry...

SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, or In What Time Zone Am I?
Aug 13, 2014 - 05:58pm PT
Ohh AnglerFish. Yes the devil. My favorite bike jersey when I want to be totally bad azzzz and want everyone to get out of my way.

Susan

Back to regularly scheduled programming. Fascinating thread.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Aug 13, 2014 - 06:02pm PT
Thanks Marlow and Nita.

It was very difficult for me to write that post, but after reading Tobia's soliloquy, i simply had to bear my soul. It's been something i've wanted to get off my chest for awhile and he inspired me to do it. So thanks for that Tobia.

It's been annoying to watch what could be the most important, relevant post on the subject fall off the front page. Especially considering it was on a thread made by Juan(lost arrow) who unfortunately decided to end his time on this planet too soon.

So let's hear what a Christian who suffers from severe depression has to say on the topic....


Tobia

Aug 13, 2014 - 03:11am PT
I think about Juan occasionally, and the other people known to have lost their struggle with the black dog. I wrote Juan several emails when he was expressing his struggles on this thread. I don't know if he ever read them or got them. He never responded. I think of him and his desperation often.

I keep fighting, it keeps fighting and only time will tell who will finally overcome. It may end up being a draw.

There are a lot of opinions expressed here, some by professionals who treat depression by teaching coping skills and/or prescribing medicine to offset the disease or both. There are other opinions of speculation about the disease and some of those seem totally senseless.

As I stated up thread, I have been wrestling with this disease since I was born. Some of my earliest memories are dark. I can remember feeling all alone in a family of 9, in a kindergarten class of 25, in my bed late at night with two of my brothers sleeping beside me.

I have been categorized as having Borderline Personality Disorder (I interpret that as bordering on having a personality because of my extreme low self-esteem, total lack of self confidence and social grace). I also have three types of anxiety disorders, the Generalized Anxiety, Panic and Social types.

There seems to be two causative factors that allow the black dog to control my mind. Sometimes I wake up with him controlling my mind and then there are circumstances that seem to trigger his attack. I have been learning methods of resisting the latter of these two causes and have had some success.

The former, there is no control. It just happens. I have no more control over these attacks than I do the weather. I try to fight back, to get out of bed and exercise, work or engage other people; but it never works. I finally give up and just ride it out. It may last a day, other times a week or so.

In the past I was treated for Bipolar; but that was a long time ago, some 36 years, (when it was labeled manic depression). I never thought much of that because I rarely hit the manic stage that is common to people who suffer this disorder.

The TMS treatment I underwent helped tremendously in some ways; but not so much in other ways. Again there is no magic cure.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2220943&msg=2220943#msg2220943

I have had one booster round since the initial program; but I can't afford another round and am not sure if I would benefit.

In the last 3 months I have had serious lows, the extreme ones where I contemplate death as the only solution. The pain is just overbearing, there is no hope and my Christian faith seems to wain. The only thing that stops me from following through are my two dogs and deciding how to do it. I also pray that the pain will end and it usually does; although during these episodes, I don't have any memory of not suffering the crippling effects, happiness is neither remembered and unimaginable.

Physical pain bears no resemblance to mental pain. I can and do endure physical pain, and in some veins I thrive on it; as in endurance sports. Mental pain has no bounds, no threshold and seemingly has the ability to cripple all other strengths. This is especially pertinent when considering that there seems no underlying cause of the anguish; such as the loss of a loved one, financial distress, a broken romance or any kind of assorted disappointments that are experienced in life.

My therapist discontinued my treatments because she had left the hospital where I started cognitive therapy with her. She left due to the corporate setting of a mental hospital to set up shop in a smaller group where she was less restricted. I was seeing her there; but she said that she was recommending me to another group because my suicidal tendencies worried her and caused her anxiety. The anxiety was her fear that I might follow through with my obsession with death and that she would feel responsible (not liable) and because she no longer worked in a hospital setting where she could get immediate feedback from the M.D.'s and other staff, she was not comfortable treating me.

That was a serious blow to my recovery, I had grown very comfortable expressing my thoughts, problems and fears to her. I felt like I was being abandoned, given up on. I felt just like I did when my wife left in the middle of the night, because, I believe she could not deal with the dog.

The fact of the matter is that her concerns were real. I have since met with her and she explained her concerns and the foundations of her decision. At the time of that visit, I was not depressed and it made sense to me. I felt guilty for causing her that much anguish.

I haven't started therapy with the recommended group she provided as I have a history with them. I spent about 5 years in the'90s with a therapist there, 2-3 times a week. They now charge $165/hour. They won't settle for the 80% medicare pays. So it is a useless proposition.

I don't think I will start over again, as it is very difficult to establish a level of trust with a therapist.

I have been "up" for four weeks now. I have riding my bike, socializing a little and taking care of the business of life, such as addressing financial problems, maintaining my property and dealing with issues that usually get brushed aside. It is hard to imagine what the black dog days or like when I feel this way.

The trouble with being up is I know I will sooner or late wake up with the dog on my back. It is inevitable; as involuntary as my heartbeat.

I take medicine for anxiety and a low voltage sleeping aid. I get 5 hours of sleep instead of two now. That in itself if is makes life worth living. Sleep is necessary to feel human.

Here is a link to a short video that someone emailed me today, because I have been using the term "black dog" every since I read that Winston Churchill used it to describe his struggle with depression.

It doesn't express the exact magnitude of my struggle, nor some other factors; but I believe it will show people who don't understand depression or feel like they are alone in their struggle the realities.

I don't think I will ever be cured, and I pray (today) that he never wins. When he is on me, I pray for death. I don't run away from it, I just grow weary of the struggle. Obviously part of my own therapy is write or talk about it, not just for my benefit; but for others who don't know the dog is on their heels.

One last thing, for the non-believers or people who are not Christian or a follower of some other faith, you are jeopardizing someone's hope that they can cope with this disease. Keep the negative vibes to yourself, what do you gain by discouraging someone from believing when they are struggling with surviving? In essence you are contributing to their demise. I was an atheist until I had given up all hope and had my 9mm at my temple, trying to find a reason not to off myself, the pain was too much to bear. If it wasn't for divine intervention I would be dead. You don't have to accept that as real; but I do because I experienced it. It is faith that props me up. So please don't present arguments about someone's personal believe when the topic of depression is at hand. Save it for another thread.

Well enough, I didn't set out to write as much as I did, I just wanted to post the video.

http://www.upworthy.com/what-is-depression-let-this-animation-with-a-dog-shed-light-on-it?c=ufb4

PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Central Valley, CA
Aug 13, 2014 - 06:19pm PT
Scott, how can you lump emotions in with sins? How is feeling depressed a sin?

You're setting the bar extremely high, pretty much unattainable, to be a "true Christian" if you're going to lump emotions and sins together.

Please keep in mind that your "alternative" is YOUR alternative...through YOUR experiences in YOUR life. What works for YOU doesn't necessarily work for others.

:)

Also, as I mentioned earlier, perhaps you missed it, do you remember the local pastor that off'd himself a few years ago? Was he a "true Christian" then?
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