Who Will Defend the First Amendment?

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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 6, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
Just saying you can read the constitution and get an answer is a major over simplification. Just look at the second amendment. People here have argued what those short sentences mean for tens of thousands of posts on this site alone. How would that get worked out without a final court decision?
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 6, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
David Brock ran the campaign to smear Anita Hill and was not paid by George Soros then, whether he is now or not is open to question.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
May 6, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
Just saying you can read the constitution and get an answer is a major over simplification. Just look at the second amendment. People here have argued what those short sentences mean for tens of thousands of posts on this site alone. How would that get worked out without a final court decision?


Well, kinda. There is a lot of discourse available between the founders as to why the argued for/against certain aspects of the Fed gov't. The Federalist Papers is one good source, but there are others.

Is is pretty clear why they argued for the 2nd Amendment, as well as the the rest of the Bill of Rights. It was overbearing Federal (formerly British) gov't.

Regarding the 2nd, there is much talk about keeping the citizens armed to defend against tyranny from our own gov't. And their wisdom is evident from our recent history from the past 100 years or so. We, being the world, and tyrannts disarming people.

Brock is a hack too. And he is definitely paid by George Soros, not entirely, but Soros contributes to MMFA

Brock has proven himself to be a cheap, gutter-rat. He distorts and makes stuff up all the time at Media Matters. Very disingenuous bastard. His favorite weapon is to play people out of context to distort their intentions.

Dude's a f*#king rat.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
May 7, 2014 - 12:22am PT
Bluething,

Get some real facts to help your rants. Paraphrasing your favorite talking points is hardly a display of reason...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 7, 2014 - 02:14am PT
Got any proof to the contrary, send it on up.


Same to you, zBrown. It's far easier to prove something happened than to prove it did not. The burden of proof should be on Hill and her supporters.

The accusations against Thomas were a political hatchet job. If there were sufficient proof by even a preponderance of the evidence, Hill could have filed and won a civil suit. The Democrats certainly show no restraint in attacking their political opponents. Where's the beef?

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 7, 2014 - 02:27am PT
On a less partisan note, the Bill of Rights did not apply to the states until the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment. That amendment also added the Equal Protection clause to the Constitution.

The First and Fourteenth Amendments contain a clear tension regarding religion. The government may neither establish a religion, nor may it prohibit the free exercise of a religion. It I am a legislator and I want to open my legislative session with a prayer, am I establishing religion by so doing? If a may not do so, is the government prohibiting my free exercise of it?

That's why the cases are so maddeningly technical and nuanced. The latest case is a very close one in my own mind, and particularly so because of the long tradition and jurisprudence allowing invocations. But for that tradition, I would say the court made a baffling ruling. The existence of that very long history, together with the majority's very narrow ruling, seems sound, but I would have found the dissent's position sound as well.

In any case, allowing an invocation in a legislative session differs greatly in coercive effect from, say, having a teacher open a class in a public school with a prayer. The majority opinion did nothing to displace existing precedents that limits prayer in public schools.

I also have an issue with "official" prayers in any public meeting precisely because I am an Evangelical Christian. What do such prayers mean, particularly when Jesus explicitly commanded that prayer be devoid of empty phrases, and that we not practice our piety to be noticed by others? Would the prayer not be more appropriate among a group of like-minded believers, much as we now limit prayer in public schools? As I said, I could easily support a SCOTUS ruling either way.

Carry on.

John
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
May 7, 2014 - 02:39am PT
In any case, allowing an invocation in a legislative session differs greatly in coercive effect from, say, having a teacher open a class in a public school with a prayer. The majority opinion did nothing to displace existing precedents that limits prayer in public schools.

Except that those praying are asking for a blessing for a meeting they should be damned well prepared for and not asking for divine intervention or assistance. In essence these praying councils are asking for forgiveness in advance to cover for their lack of preparation and mistakes. As most of the praying politicians seem to invoke the apology as an excuse for abysmal behavior and performance, this ruling will keep such low performers blessed and protected from the rath of their constituents.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 7, 2014 - 02:47am PT
The normal test for establishment of religion focuses on the coercive nature of the practice. The rulings on school prayer found that a teacher opening the class in prayer constituted an endorsement of the religion upon which that prayer was based. Since the teacher led the class, that had the effect of an "official" endorsement by the school of that religion and, for that reason would have a coercive effect on those who otherwise would not adhere to the teacher's religion.

In contrast, an invocation at a public meeting does not constitute an endorsement by the public meeting. It only constitutes an endorsement by the person praying. In simplified terms, the Greece, NY, invocation before the SCOTUS was open to anyone. The population of the town was predominantly Christian, however, so most people seeking to give the invocation gave a Christian invocation. The Town Council, the majority reasoned, were mature adults and would feel no particular coercion regardless of the particular invocation given.

In addition, though, many, if not most, legislative bodies at the time of the enactment of the Bill of Rights opened with invocations, and there was explicit case law allowing, for example, the Senate to employ a Chaplain. The majority reasoned that the First Amendment could not have had the intent, and should not be given the effect, of barring invocations in light of that history.

In contrast, the dissent sees any official governmental activity that involves religious practice as an official part of that activity as violating the Establishment Clause. In the dissent's view, anything less than an absolute ban on that connection leaves the law on a very slippery slope.

Does that help?

John
John M

climber
May 7, 2014 - 02:51am PT
If there were sufficient proof by even a preponderance of the evidence, Hill could have filed and won a civil suit.

How often is there sufficient proof of these kinds of accusations in an office situation when its one persons word against anothers? She passed a polygraph. Thomas refused to take one.

I don't believe she was lying.


Edit: if she wasn't lying, then it was a political hatchet job on her. Not by her.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
May 7, 2014 - 03:04am PT
The Town Council, the majority reasoned, were mature adults and would feel no particular coercion regardless of the particular invocation given.

The coercion held by the teacher over a class and a council over its constituents is not entirely different. In both cases, those invoking prayer are asking for cultural conformity during that time regardless of how brief it is, and both the teacher and the council are delegated to cast judgement over what transpires under their sessions.

The SCOTUS ruling places those that don't conform to the norm in a setting like Greece, NY, as non-conforming to the norms; not exactly a fair place to begin a public discussion about public policy.
Degaine

climber
May 7, 2014 - 05:40am PT
bluering wrote:
But that does not mean the Constitution should be changed necessarily.


But the US Constitution has been changed, many times as a matter of fact, starting with the 1st amendment being discussed here.
Degaine

climber
May 7, 2014 - 06:10am PT
Ron Anderson wrote:
Is NBC under some gag order NOT to use the two words muslim, and terrorist in the same sentence? Is the use of the word terrorist now reserved for citizens here? Or is this all stomping on the first amendment?

NBC is exercising its 1st amendment right to say, or in this case not say, something.

Regarding using the word terrorist to describe American citizens, you had no problem calling two Americans terrorists with regard to the Boston Marathon bombing last year, why the change in heart?
Lollie

Social climber
I'm Lolli.
May 7, 2014 - 06:43am PT
Leave the room, huh?

The pledge of Allegiance was read every morning in high school. Usually I just stood there, among everyone else and simply kept quiet, nobody even noticed. Then one day I came late, from the teacher's study in to the assembly room. The same moment I stepped into the room the pledge started. So I stood there, still, arms down and quiet, facing some hundred schoolmates who were reading the pledge. One upset girl asked me afterwards, why I didn't read the pledge. "I'm not an American citizen", I answered. "So?" she said. "You should read it anyway!!"

Beyond stupid.

I don't think she ever grasped what the ceremony was for. Each morning, dress, brush your teeth, say the pledge, go to classroom.
:-o Whattya mean, does it MEAN something? Like, like, does the constitution MEAN something???

Never liked that girl. She was stupid, literally.

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
May 7, 2014 - 07:39am PT
Thirty-one words. Minus "under God" makes it useless, pitiful, stupit. Otherwise, it's a good thing?

I'm an OK American but never understood why we gotta do this thing which God doesn't suggest, really, anyplace in the bible, so...just showin' up should indicate willingness to be bent to shape.

And the nuns told me that the words don't mean a thing unless God blesses it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
May 7, 2014 - 10:05am PT
JEleazarian



Did you read this? Who was swinging the axes?

Thomas denied Hill's accusations, few witnesses were called to support her (she wasn't the nominee) and the nominee was confirmed, 52 to 48. But that didn't settle the mystery at the heart of those hearings. In front of the whole country and under oath, one of two people had lied. Since one of those people is now a Supreme Court Justice who cast a vote making George W. Bush President, the point is far from moot. And last week the mystery took another turn, thanks to former American Spectator character assassin David Brock, the man designated by the right to destroy Hill's reputation and scrub Thomas'. Brock confesses in a Talk magazine excerpt of his new book, Blinded by the Right, that he had printed "virtually every derogatory and often contradictory allegation" he could to make Hill seem "a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty." If that was all Brock did, we might have nothing more than another sin committed on behalf of the vast right-wing conspiracy. But Brock, who has forged a second career as a recovering conservative, makes one admission that implicates Thomas. Brock says he used information that came indirectly from Thomas to force a retraction from a woman named Kaye Savage, who had come forward in support of Hill. Brock threatened to publicize vicious charges made by her ex-husband in a sealed child-custody dispute.

In an interview with TIME last week, Savage recalled her meeting with Brock in the lobby of the Marriott Hotel in downtown Washington in 1994Bold Text. A book titled Strange Justice, by reporters Jane Mayer and Jill Abramson, had just come out — and it used on-the-record interviews to argue persuasively that Thomas had indeed subjected a number of women to frequent sexually explicit remarks about porno videos. Savage, a black mid-level aide in the Reagan Administration, told both the authors and the Judiciary Committee (although she wasn't called to testify publicly) that when she went to Thomas' apartment in the early 1980s, the place was littered with graphic photos of nude women. When Savage met Brock, she says, he let her know he could ruin her. "He knew all this personal stuff," she says. "He wanted me to take back what I had said. I couldn't — it was true — but I was intimidated, and so I faxed him something innocuous. I was scared."
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
May 7, 2014 - 10:10am PT
1991 called and wants its confirmation scamdal returned immediately.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 7, 2014 - 10:41am PT
Lollie, I like the Pledge of Allegiance. It was written by a socialist.

That really makes the right wingers choke.
dirtbag

climber
May 7, 2014 - 11:45am PT
Rosoide wrote:

Yes you explanation helps a great deal but it is very complex and sometimes "fuzzy" territory. Thank you for sharing your insights. It seems, that the element of "coercion" is a key player in this whole dilemma.


Hi Lois!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 12:31pm PT
The 10th Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[2]
reduction ad absurdum a State can respect an establishment of religion as I've seen argued here.

Sorry, do your homework. Post Civil War, things weren't working out so well in the States unhappy with the war's outcome.
Because the post Civil War southern states were not obeying the 13th Amendment that abolished slavery. claiming the 10th Amendment
Hence the 14th Amendment Section 1
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

as ratified by the 3/4 of the states according to Article V
ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress

Why is the Constitution so deliberately vague?
Why does it create the Supreme Court with lifetime tenure? Except for impeachment which has never happened.
Why are Justices appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate?
Precisely because the Founders realized they could not possibly anticipate the future and they wanted one final, politically independent (sort of) arbiter.
There have been Village Idiot justices prior to Thomas and there will be again.
There have been many Supreme Court decisions overruled or altered and there will be again.
By the way, the SCOTUS is the only court created by the Constitution.
Article 3 in part
The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish......
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
May 7, 2014 - 12:47pm PT
I like the Pledge of Allegiance. It was written by a socialist.
I also appreciate the Pledge of Allegiance and take it rather seriously. Exercising my 1st Amendment right (both clauses) I decline to say the "under god" bit.
Whose god? Which of the hundreds of Hindu deities? Abraham's vengeful god or the more recent benevolent one? The one who turned Lot into a pillar of salt? The god the 9/11 bombers followed?
Which god are we "under"? The same god who is recognized by Jew, Muslim and Christian but not Buddhist?

"one nation, indivisible with liberty and justice for all" I understand. Does that make my allegiance less?

PS
I believe you Anita Hill
Shame on you McCain, McConnell and Hatch
Messages 121 - 140 of total 215 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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