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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 12, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
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This has nothing to do with the U.S. There is nothing we can do.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 13, 2014 - 12:00am PT
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Bluering, you are a communist apologist.
Was the communist takeover of the previous form of government and killing of previous rulers a coup?
Oh, it was? So the current gov't of Russia is not legitimate?
I bet you look great in a red uniform.
But fun as that is, there is a very pragmatic element to all this, and that is that we have virtually no power in the equation. That which we can bring to bear (economic) is ultimately destabilizing.
I'm reading estimates that it will take 300 BILLION over the next few years to stabilize Ukraine. That's tax dollars we're talking about. And what have we stabilized? One of the most corrupt forms of gov't on the planet. I doubt that much of that money will end up helping the people, anyway.
It will end up in the pockets of various fascists.
They get all of their fuel from Russia, which will cut it off. HELLO, Keystone Pipeline!
Let Russia have the whole thing. Let them finance the whole country. Let Russia deal with the uncertainty of another Chechnya. Let Russia drain their coffers.
Instead of putting Russia in the position of getting even, let them be in the position of owing us....on Syria, on Iran. Much bigger fish.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 13, 2014 - 12:02am PT
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This has nothing to do with the U.S. There is nothing we can do.
Couldn't agree more. This isn't some tin-pot Egypt or Libya or Syria. This is Russia you are dealing with. We should not be push-overs on the subject either.
We made the mistake of choosing the wrong side in this one, and Putin is a strategic master. He will win at any/all costs. Especially when idiots like McCain and Kerry try to lecture HIM on sovereignty just after all the bullshit we've been pulling in the ME and North Africa. Hypocrisy much?
We should stay the hell away from this. Let Putin quietly take Crimea and let it go away.
Maybe mandate some elections of something for the rest of Ukraine, but Crimea is gone. And maybe it should be in Russian hands.
Sorry if I appear to be siding with former KGB, but he actually may be right on this. And our diplomats are idiots, including McCain, Kerry, and our inept State Dept., again...
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Mar 13, 2014 - 12:04am PT
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath knows what's up. She's seems kind of like a Ukrainian Sarah Palin tho......
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 13, 2014 - 12:05am PT
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I'm reading estimates that it will take 300 BILLION over the next few years to stabilize Ukraine. That's tax dollars we're talking about. And what have we stabilized? One of the most corrupt forms of gov't on the planet. I doubt that much of that money will end up helping the people, anyway.
It will end up in the pockets of various fascists.
How is that different than our current administration, or the former one, for that matter. We spent 3 TIMES AS MUCH MONEY on "shovel-ready jobs" and where did that get us? More food-stamps? More unemployment?
You are stuck in knee-jerk hate of Russia. They are right on this one...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Mar 13, 2014 - 12:54am PT
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I'm researching and writing an editorial on this whole sh#t-storm. I'll post it here when it's done.
I have to wade through both Western MSM idiots stuck in the 80's, and Russian propaganda to get some semblance of 'truth'.
As I said it will be an editorial. With links. Stay tuned....
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 13, 2014 - 02:05am PT
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How is that different than our current administration, or the former one, for that matter. We spent 3 TIMES AS MUCH MONEY on "shovel-ready jobs" and where did that get us? More food-stamps? More unemployment?
Every single dollar was spent on AMERICANS. It was used to stabilize the AMERICAN ECONOMY. Even if you think it didn't work, these things are true.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 13, 2014 - 02:07am PT
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It was pissed away on nothing, Ken.
If not, please cite what we got for our nearly one TRILLION dollar "investment". What did we get?
You or I could have spent those dollars more wisely.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 13, 2014 - 02:12am PT
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There is a CBO report Chaz.
Start there.
Or don't. It's been available for a few years, and I doubt you care about what it says anyway.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 13, 2014 - 02:15am PT
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Even you can't tell us ( because, when given the perfect chance, you didn't ) what our trillion dollar "investment" got us.
For a trillion dollars, the benefits should be obvious. But reality is the exact opposite.
You or I could have spent those dollars more wisely.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Mar 13, 2014 - 08:00am PT
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Ken M has it right..Much like iraq and Afghanistan has drained our coffers , the Ukraine will do the same for Poo-in- a-tin...Bluering...? So now you're rooting for the Bolsheviks..? There's a twist...
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 13, 2014 - 08:15am PT
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Even you can't tell us ( because, when given the perfect chance, you didn't ) what our trillion dollar "investment" got us.
For a trillion dollars, the benefits should be obvious. But reality is the exact opposite.
You or I could have spent those dollars more wisely.
Of course I could tell you. Estimates are that it created around 3 million jobs and likely helped prevent a deeper slide into a recession.
You are not an ignorant person, you have heard over and over again about the effects of the stimulus--which wasn't a trillion dollars, btw--a few years ago when it was a hot topic. But I think your mind is made up on the matter, you basically don't think the government can ever do anything right, so why bother?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 17, 2014 - 04:45pm PT
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Majid, you are sooo channeling Juan de Fuca! Four days, that's rich!
First, there ain't gonna be no 'conflict'. Second, Obama should consult a
good Santero in Miami for all the good his sanctions are gonna do.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 17, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
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Majid_S called it 3 months ago all while the zombie morons in the Republican are wrong thread are yapping about nothing.
Shows exactly how stupid those stupid topo politards in that thread are .....
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vlani
Trad climber
mountain view, ca
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Mar 17, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
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US assets of bunch of top Russians officials are frozen. Russians are ecstatic. Both Putin and Obama getting popularity boost in Russia. Two birds with one stone they calling it.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Mar 17, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
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The yapping , zombie , chihauha , morons is what makes supertopo so intriguing...
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Mar 17, 2014 - 11:23pm PT
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The current situation, Crimea independence, Ukraine uprising for “freedom,” Russia rescuing the oppressed and disowned Crimean’s, and the USA and EU standing up about Russian involvement in the crisis, has to be the most confusing conundrums in global politics I’ve ever lived through. I see both sides as legitimate in one way or another, and staying neutral is painful. I see both sides and have family in both Moscow and Odessa. Whatever the outcome, I pray for no violence or on-the-ground warfare between any party.
Nobody on any side, Russian, Ukrainian, Crimean, EU or American have ever been noteworthy enemies of any sort; let’s keep the peace and figure this out on paper. Luckily, Obama, Kerry and the EU are following this path, so far.
One of my favorite reads of all time is "Peter the Great" by Massie. This book helps one understand why the Russian stamp on Ukraine is so enduring, despite gas, money, power or otherwise. Now is a difficult way forward, for sure.
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