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this just in
climber
north fork
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Dec 16, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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No I think you are pretty spot on. Just reminded me of this incident cause I live so close to it. It was a freak accident and pretty sad.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
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Mr Bega writes:
"It would be tough to kill someone with an 8 grain pellet moving 1200 fps if you put the barrel up their nose."
You'd have us believe nobody has ever been killed by birdshot. A 7 1/2 or a #8 shot pellet weighs less than a .177 airgun pellet, and isn't traveling any faster. Only takes one pellet hitting home to be lethal, shooting a whole bunch of them all at once ( shotgun ) just increases your odds.
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
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Obesity kills more than guns ever have maybe we should ban food? I love the media report only what plays with people fears leave out all the lives (good lives) saved by guns. But this is America god forbid we hold the people responsible for there actions. I don't know about you guys but I am fed up with all the drunk cars killing people.
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
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"Gun NUT" please explain what this is.
I agree with ban nothing Dave, let things work out on there own without billions spent "banning" things that do no good.
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:43pm PT
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^---wow I just looked at myself as a honest person, nothing on my record, a good job/nice house (the american dream) I was way off.
Bottom line there are things way worse then guns if we are pushing anti-guns for saving lives.
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:47pm PT
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no A honest person cant have that much chest hair.
Dingus is being the good sheep following all the media tells you.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
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What gun laws would be needed to prevent this from happening?
How would they be implemented?
I love the idea of laws that will keep guns out of the hands of a nut job but how do actually make it happen.
People like feel good laws. It gets politicians elected. The problem is writing a law that is enforceable that will prevent this crap from happening.
But really...how do we keep a shot gun out of the hands of a nut job 18 year old ?
By the way, this is going down in my back yard. My kids were on lock down at school last week and have police in the building today.
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
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hey dingus why do we only have problems in "gun free zones"? I seem to remember them banning drugs how did that work out? your plan is snap your fingers and 1 gun per 100 people probably more not reported and all will just dissapear? Your only one violent crime away from being a gun owner then you will understand the cops you love will be 30 minutes to late.Black market will always be there to make money, if your a crook you will just go buy your gun from the dude you get your dime bag from.
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
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dave what is there alot to be done you speak of? That will not take my rights to self protection.
Snowmass-- I believe we are starting on the wrong end (the gun). We should be starting with the individuals that do crimes like these.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
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We could make changes that save lives, without compromising anybody's right to self defense
Specifically what?
Oh yeah, I had to talk to my two kids over the weekend about what to do when/if this happens at your school. honestly, i see the whole school shooting thing to be a trend ( as sad as that is to say). Hopefully one that goes away eventually.
Police response times are up and the fact that the school had office that was packing ended this incident in less than 2 minutes. I think they are saying something like 1 min 20 sec until the dude off'd himself.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:05pm PT
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I love it when gun nuts try evasion as a tactic.
I love it when anti-gun-nuts refuse to recognize the clear evidence. They quote only those statistics that "make" their case, while conveniently avoiding statistical cases that "show" their case is weak and non-causal.
In Australia the FACT is that since sweeping gun control, mass-murderers HAVE indeed turned to arson to get the deed done. Fire moves very quickly, especially with something like gasoline in the mix. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire);
There were NO mass-murders by arson in Australia prior to sweeping gun control. Now, virtually as many people in a comparable time slice have been MASS-murdered by arson. So, gun control in Australia DID in FACT have the effect that fire became the mass-murder weapon of choice.
I have to laugh about the fact that you can only, lamely, call this an "angle" or "tactic." People love to cite places like Australia as "proof" that gun control "works" (whatever that means). But if you are seriously trying to use gun control to stop or even reduce mass murders, then I cite you back the "proof" that JUST as many people then get mass-murdered by fire. And all you've got to say is "tactic?"
ROFL... impervious to the evidence.
A few molotov cocktails in a school will kill FAR more kids (and more horribly) than the vast majority of these shooters have managed thus far.
Just a heads up. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. But let's do gun control (instead of "angles" that actually could work) and see what happens.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
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Out of the mouthes of babes
Hickenlooper: New Gun Laws Had No Impact on Arapahoe HS Shooting
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
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limits on mag size? so the crooks will follow this why? A mother just shot a burgler in the face 5 times and the guy still left and got in his car what if there were two or three of them (gang) it is not the movies handguns are way underpowered one shot does not blow them across the room so no thanks. Ban semi auto wow so I can use my one shot bolt gun to defend myself no thanks. your whole argument is based on the criminals following your rules as well and they just will not do this. I have my cc and carry everywhere its legal I find it funny that you think (probably with no training of your own) that you know whats best for my self and family protection.
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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here comes the "ban guns they are black and scary" BS.............
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N/@
Trad climber
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
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I loose at what? I am not a sheep I look at facts. If something goes off around you and the best you have going for you is waiting a hour for the cops I feel sorry for you, sometimes people like you learn the truth to late.
Ron I like the sound of a minimum round count. To much of this maximum BS.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
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You wanna CC a revolver? I got no problem with that, after you take a class and pass a check.
For the record, I'm all in favor of such an approach. I'm all in favor of personal responsibility and registered ownership. I don't fear a "national gun registry" or something like that.
I also don't think such an approach will noticeably reduce gang-land gun violence nor the incidence of whack jobs using a gun to kill a bunch of people.
So, when the next steps are taken, beyond what you said here, and you start limiting magazine sizes to some utterly arbitrary number and stuff like that, that is where I say, "Uhh... but no."
So, registration and training = yes!
Artificial definitions and arbitrary limits = no!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 16, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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"... tactics... evasion...."
http://thecoloradoobserver.com/2013/12/hickenlooper-new-gun-laws-had-no-impact-on-arapahoe-hs-shooting/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=hickenlooper-new-gun-laws-had-no-impact-on-arapahoe-hs-shooting
So, let me get this straight. Us "gun nuts" have been saying for a LONG time that these gun control laws DON'T WORK to address these mass murders. We cite all sort of evidence to that effect. But, of course, we're to be entirely dismissed as employing "evasion tactics."
But, here we have a Democratic governor of the state that just passed (over the objections of 95+% of the sheriffs!) some of the most sweeping new gun laws in the United States. And HE says that these new laws did not and CAN not have any effect on such an incident as just happened.
So, check my math here.... A DEMOCRATIC proponent of the gun laws that he in fact pushed for and then signed into law must be just using EVASION TACTICS when he says things like, "So things like universal background checks, I think they are going to make us safer, but in this specific case aren't going to make a difference at all, and that’s the challenge."
"None of those stopped the Arapahoe gunman, 18-year-old Karl Pierson, whom authorities say bought his shotgun and ammunition legally at a local retail outlet. He also carried a machete and three incendiary devices."
Incendiary devices??? So, he came prepared to do exactly what I had JUST warned about. Talk about prescient, if I do say so myself.
Good thing there was a trained GUN present to take this whack job out before he had the chance to do all the damage he planned!
You anti-gun-nuts ready to go after shotguns next? What about incendiary devices?
Or are you finally ready to talk seriously about what COULD work?
Oh, wait, that would be "insane!"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 16, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
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Either you make nukes legal or you set arbitrary limits. No way around it.
Not true. I've carefully and repeatedly explained a PRINCIPLED difference between individuals having nukes and individuals having guns. It is not an "arbitrary" difference. It is a difference based upon the in-principle types of threats an individual might confront.
Nukes are MASS threats designed to take out millions of people. No individual CAN in principle respond to such a threat. So, individuals band together and form governments to address threats that are really national in scope (same case for national defense).
Even tanks fall into the same principle. Individuals do not get threatened by tanks; so individuals do not need tanks to defend against such threats.
Individuals need only comparable weaponry to that brought against them qua individuals by individuals. That's a pretty clear, principled line that precludes individuals from needing or having nukes.
Nothing arbitrary about it!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Dec 16, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
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You. Its all about you. And your precious firearms. Well I don't give a f*#k about your right to bear arms and increasingly, my fellow Americans agree.
Mark my words. We're gonna get those guns.
LOL... it can't be all about ME ("selfish," as you say) because I don't even own a single "precious firearm." I AM talking about "cold, hard" principles, because those are far more reliable than any froth that gets whipped up by the media.
We'll see what happens even here in Colorado. Two pols that voted for gun control have already been recalled (for that very reason), and the tide has turned. Your "fellow Americans" don't have the foggiest clue what they "agree" about moment by moment. Unprincipled, frothy, and reactionary... their "thinking" process is THE reason why the US was supposed to have a representative form of government (with a STRONG, State-appointed Senate) rather than the increasingly direct democracy we have been heading towards.
"We're gonna get those guns." ROFL!!!
Good luck with that. And good luck with regulating Molotov cocktails (and their makings). Oh, right, they are already regulated. Oh, sorry. We're safe, and so are our kids!
What I don't care about is this chimera of general "safety" you think is achievable if you can just get enough laws in place.
Haters gonna hate. Killers gonna kill. Kids are gonna die. Sometimes more of them; sometimes less. Choose your time-slice to play with your statistics.
And FAT is the real killer. Devote your wrath to that national epidemic, and you'd really save some kids!
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