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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Nov 16, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
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I sympathize with those who don't think there should be a free ride for anyone. The problem is hospitals and doctors, and the rest of us too really, have a moral and ethical obligation to help anyone in need of medical attention whether they have insurance or not. I contrast this with TGT's boat example. No one has a moral or ethical obligation to provide anyone with a boat. Health care is unique in this way.
In our current system often the uninsured seek treatment in the most inefficient way possible. They wait until they are really f*#cked and then they go to the ER. In two hours in the ER the cost to care for their bad headache is $6,000, or something like that. Hospitals and doctors pass the costs of treating the uninsured on to those of us who have insurance.
A single payer system would cut out the "stakeholders" who are bleeding the rest of us as they profit from human misery. It would cost us a whole lot less as a country and thereby make the rest of the national economy more vibrant and competitive.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 16, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
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Jimmy, I'd love to climb with you some day. Right now, traveling there is a no-go.
My point is that, yes, "Socialized" medicine is not good for all. It's mediocre for all.
Solution?
Repeal the ACA. Allow Health to be traded nationally, across State lines (the Federal gov't has the authority to mandate this).
Change the way people are allowed to sue the doctors for ridiculous reasons, Tort reform. Some lawsuits obviously are legit.
Have the gov't modify existing programs (MEdiCare/Medicaid) to accept people w/o insurance. Legal citizens of course.
It is less than the stated 50 million. Prolly more like 15 million.
Let's not change the entire system for the worse to affect a small minority. 85% of people are happy with things the way the are.
EDIT:
In our current system often the uninsured seek treatment in the most inefficient way possible. They wait until they are really f*#cked and then they go to the ER.
Single-payer, or Socialized medicine, would not stop that!
Can we stop saying single-payer? Do we always have to disguise the true intent? AKA Affordable Care Act. Gimme a break!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 16, 2013 - 01:57pm PT
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History has proven that the recent health care system for America , the so-called free market system , didn't work and was failing horribly...Those that ignore history and reality are doomed to repeat the same failures..Some call this insanity repeating the same mistakes over and over while expecting different results...The morons that want to cling to the old broken system need to stfu and keep their dangerous right-wing jibberish under wraps...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
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History has proven that the recent health care system for America , the so-called free market system , didn't work and was failing horribly.
Do you think that just spouting sh#t like this makes it true? Prolly not surprising since you think everything Obama tells you is true.
A little boy is now recovering from Leukemia. He wasn't treated in Venezuela or Finland either.
Breast cancer is now highly survivable.
We suck as a country, huh?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
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"Can we stop saying single-payer? Do we always have to disguise the true intent? AKA Affordable Care Act. "
Damn right that's the true intent. Only a moron would believe that the shithole ACA was the intended end product of this effort.
Obama's primary mistake was to believe that the GOP would make any effort other than sabotage to try and fix the healthcare system in this country.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
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So the ACA is the GOP's fault? How?
EDIT: Shiloh, I know this. Just stating that we aren't basket cases in Heath treatment. Far from it.
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sempervirens
climber
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
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Could we have a government provided system for all AND private providers for those who could afford pay for it? What if the gov. system regulated prices and/or negotiated prices.
The providers who opt out of taking gov.-funded patients could compete for the high-paying customers. Those providers could charge according to the market. And patients who choose to go to them would be responsible to pay for services themselves. Those patients would still be funding the gov. system through taxation, and the conservatives would cry foul. Let 'em cry, because right now the majority of us are crying foul. If my hypothetical system improved the situation for the majority then democracy might be working.
I realize there are a nearly infinite number of variables and details to work out. My point is that I'd like to hear this type of discussion rather than the nonsensical delusions about a capitalist system or socialist system that doesn't even exist.
Hmm, the discussion has elevated a bit while I typed. Cool. Even Bluering comes near to making sense.
Blue, stick to the topic and leave off the rhetoric. Saying we can improve is not saying our "country sucks".
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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"So the ACA is the GOP's fault? How?"
The ACA is a result of a weak-spined, capitulating, naive Democratic POTUS against the 'we don't give a sh#t about healthcare' GOP who wouldn't do a goddam thing to address the problem at any time, in any way, shape or form.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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Could we have a government provided system for all AND private providers for those who could afford pay for it? What if the gov. system regulated prices and/or negotiated prices.
The providers who opt out of taking gov.-funded patients could compete for the high-paying customers. Those providers could charge according to the market. And patients who choose to go to them would be responsible to pay for services themselves. Those patients would still be funding the gov. system through taxation, and the conservatives would cry foul. Let 'em cry, because right now the majority of us are crying foul. If my hypothetical system improved the situation for the majority then democracy might be working.
I realize there are a nearly infinite number of variables and details to work out. My point is that I'd like to hear this type of discussion rather than the nonsensical delusions about a capitalist system or socialist system that doesn't even exist.
I think that kinda like what I outlined for Donini above.
EDIT:The ACA is a result of a weak-spined, capitulating, naive Democratic POTUS against the 'we don't give a sh#t about healthcare' GOP who wouldn't do a goddam thing to address the problem at any time, in any way, shape or form.
So the GOP made the US House and Senate overwhelmingly vote for this POS on purely partisan lines. No Repub voted for it.
And the prez signed what he could have vetoed for a restart.
Keep making excuses.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:26pm PT
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Yes, should!!!!
And could have before the republitard machine ruined everything starting with an actor named Ronald Reagan…
But American exceptionalism is no longer fits the reality….
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
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Bullshit, this 'isn't the GOP's fault'.
If they had any kind of willingness (and historically-demonstrated effort!) to address this issue, a better solution could have been crafted than the ACA abortion.
We needed an LBJ-style to address the Repug fascists on this issue, not a weak-kneed liberal approach. Obama gets props for intent, but that's as far as it goes in my book.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
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Don't outline for me bluering, climb with me.....isn't that what ST is all about? Ha, ha, ha
Snowing here today but good weather in IC starting Monday.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 16, 2013 - 02:46pm PT
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One of these days, Jim. I'm a family man now so the road-trips are harder to pull off. When my son gets older, or summer vacation, it will be a lot easier.
He loves camping, so it would not be hard when the time avails itself.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Nov 16, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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Damn right that's the true intent. Only a moron would believe that the shithole ACA was the intended end product of this effort.
So the President and the supporters of this impending disaster have been, and are continuing, to deceive and mislead voters , and the public in general.
The American people in poll after poll have registered what their thoughts are on the proposal for a national healthcare system run by the fools and charlatans in Washington: they are opposed to it.
Despite the awful shortcomings of our present system , people are intuitive enough and smart enough to realize the prospects and implications of a federal government control of something as important and as intimate to personal well-being as health . Not only would it be an unqualified disaster from a merely organizational standpoint (as the roll-out of the idiotic web site fully illustrated) but it would be an affront to basic freedom and self-determination.
This is why government run health care of whatever type must be based upon mandatory participation, threats,coercion, and fines ---because people will not want any part of it when it is fully understood how it works, and why it works. Without people to feed it, it cannot function. With people exercising autonomous freedom of choice they will eventually choose against it.
Under this deceptive new law-- politically based as it was ,on a series of public lies ---and it's intended incremental goal of a "single payer" system ---all pertinent decisions about an individual's health care ---will be ultimately determined and outlined and mandated by toady bureaucrats and their disgusting politician overlords. Think about that for a minute.
The health care of the American people will effectively , with all intents and purposes, be under the Machiavellian whims and diktat of a political system that is by it's very nature, as anyone with half a brain can see,inherently replete with lies, manipulations, propaganda , deceptive intentions, and influence peddling.(We are beginning to see that already with the numerous crony waivers that Obama has extended, including allowing Washington politicians and their lackeys a total exemption)
A new player has entered the equation. One in which, as vulnerable individuals , Americans have no control over--- as they once had over the insurance plan of their own choice, the doctor of their own choice, the hospital or care facility of their own choice.
The day the government is in total charge of health care is the day that individual freedom and self-determination, essential to a free people , will be dealt a mortal blow.
I said this earlier on this thread and it bares repeating and extending: The attempt to put health care under the complete control of the Federal Government is not an altruistic project intended to deliver superior health care to Americans---it is nothing less than a master stroke of political power designed to extend the role and predominance of the government in people's lives by an elitist bunch of arrogant, self-important narcissists who derive their ego fulfillment in life by controlling and manipulating others.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 16, 2013 - 03:52pm PT
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"So the President and the supporters of this impending disaster have been, and are continuing, to deceive and mislead voters..."
To the extent that you can precisely apply this same phrase to what your president did to get us into two unnecessary wars that cost thousands of lives and trillion$, yes, that's probably true.
Difference is...and it's a big difference...is that in this case, the political strategizing is focussed on a domestic issue that has affected millions of Americans for decades...
...and as far as I know, not a single person has died due to this political process.
Jeebus...what an oversimplified, moronic position you hold.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Nov 16, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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well, another difference is that i admire people who have become rich (as long as they do it legally) including the hedge fund managers and venture capitalists who risk the funds and capital that allow entrepreneurs to build cool stuff and employ lots of people
Many of the wealthy (probably all) take way more than they ever "give".
"Take", for example, the case of Mitt Romney. Whilst living in and making tons of money in the United States, he sheltered his income off-shore. Then accepted amnesty for his dirty dealings.
Just how much time did he spend in the military contributing to the defense of the country which allows him to take so much.
So too, most of the rest. What is their fair proportionate share for the benefits they obtain?
BTW, those jerks don't risk anything.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de La Playa
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Nov 16, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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Oh yeah
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 16, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
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I saw a sign in a front yard today which read: We don't need need Obamacare, we need Godcare!!!
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 16, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
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I'm going to assume that those ethereal beings will be providing health care then? Or instantaneous healing? Can I get some of that? I got all kinds of things an ethereal being can fix. F*#k I am confused....
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