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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"We do too know."
Not according to the most recent study on Waiting Periods, described in this article:
http://publichealthlawresearch.org/public-health-topics/injury-prevention/gun-safety/evidence-brief/waiting-period-laws-gun-permits
This study has been cited frequently since it was released a few years ago, and held up by the pro-gun nutz as evidence that there is no evidence that waiting periods work (no doubt it's the one you base your opinion on, Chaz).
If you bother to read it, though, you'll note that the study concluded not that waiting periods don't work....it's conclusion was that the framework of the study was not sufficient to draw a clear conclusion, one way or the other.
Of course, the gun lobby has twisted this meaning in the media as 'proof that waiting periods don't work', and has basically worked congress so as to not fund any further studies by the CDC on such things.
That's not 'proof', Chaz. That's manipulation.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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I'm a gun owner, shooting enthusiast and self defense advocate. I have zero problem with a State mandated waiting period and background check for gun purchases/sales. In CA it's two weeks, from a manufacturer or between individuals.
I do have a problem when the various gun transfer laws extend down to me handing a gun to a friend at the range to try out. Applying a waiting period or background check under those circumstances is absurd. I think this was one of the problems with the law the Senate kicked to the curb recently.
How do y'all feel about me lending a gun to my wife? Let's say her gun is in the shop for repair. I'm going out of town. I tell her my gun is in the safe good to go should the need arise, or a friend calls up and wants her to go to the range for some target shooting. Or maybe she wants to take a tactical course, but the instructor requests she bring a semi auto but hers is a revolver...
All you folks who want fewer guns in circulation should consider the unintended consequences of such rules (I.E. my wife would then want multiple guns.)
Have to report some illogic in the above. If you think waiting periods are fine, why are you upset that your wife may not be able to get a gun at any particular time? Why not make her wait until her gun is back from the shop?
Sounds like you have a nice double standard going on--strangers have to wait and that's fine with you, but if you or someone you know may have to wait even 1 second to have access to a gun when you would like them to have access, all of a sudden that's a big problem?
But your post does do a nice job of implicitly explaining why waiting periods may be a bad idea, even if that wasn't your intent. (To spell it out for the dimwits, someone may reasonably need a gun to defend him- or herself right fuking now, not in 10 days.)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sounds like you have a nice double standard going on--strangers have to wait and that's fine with you, but if you or someone you know may have to wait even 1 second to have access to a gun when you would like them to have access, all of a sudden that's a big problem?
Double standard? If I want to buy or sell a gun, that is to take ownership of said weapon, the background check and waiting period apply. But if the buyer, for example, wants to go to a range with me and try said weapon, I cannot hand it to him or her without doing the paperwork and waiting two weeks? There is no transfer of ownership.
Why is making someone wait to buy one OK, but they shouldn't have to wait if you just want to give it to them?
I'm not "giving it to them," I'm letting them use it to try it. At a range or other shooting site.
The situation I describe with my wife is somewhat different. Allowing a husband and wife to have joint ownership would be one solution, just as we do with cars. Anyway we're a joint property state, so this might be an interesting court case.
Relating to the tragedy in Colorado, the subject of this thread, I still wonder, as I inquired up-thread, if the local seller there skipped the background check (which due to the backlog should have delayed the purchase by some days.) If so he should be up for accomplice to murder.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Do gun shops just "let you try it"? Of course not. They'd be breaking the law.
Actually many do. They need a range on the premises. And most indoor ranges rent guns. You can go a range and try various guns 'till the cows come home, then go buy the one you want.
Your primary goal, as you have made clear, is to ban all gun ownership except of course for the government. It is quite obvious that we will never agree.
Cheerio.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Kris I have no problem with you, your wife or any other responsible person owning many guns. I have Several dozen rifles & one pistol.
I have a big problem with mentally ill being able to walk into a store and by a gun. & I don't want to hear we have laws to cover that -- cause they aren't working.
Kris, usually if I know that someone I am traveling with has a gun I will ask them to leave it at home or will go climb somewhere they are not. I would never even think of asking that of you --- I trust you not to do something stupid. We may disagree on many things & argue about all things under the sun , but I have always found you & you're beautiful wive to be honorable good people. I wish I could say that about more people than I can.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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hedge, there is a gun shop target range near me and they will let you try any gun you would like.
This is the kind of thinking that drives me crazy.
Gun shop don't let you try guns out for the same reason that bike shop don't let you ride motocross bikes before you buy them, there is no place to test ride in the store.
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command error
Trad climber
Colorado
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And when they redefine you as mentally ill?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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hhmmm one shooting one death, meanwhile in gang lands,,, 100 die.
Yes this was a tragic thing, but harldy a first and knives fire place pokers and many many other items have been used for the exact same results.
Are we to now impose regulation upon the other 2 billion gun owners over the actions of one disgruntled person?
Is that not like saying ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD!?
Did you know that hundreds of thousands shot guns in a safe and fun manner the same day of the incident?
Every bad guy has a gun, every criminal gang member has a gun. The time for hand wring over guns was the late 1800s. Now is far too late.
This hits home for you because it happened near you- fully understandable. But the reactions are typical and broad brushed ..
Take the reaction from our Natil guard commander who, after the IHOP shooting in Carson, gave orders to her troops NOT TO wear their uniforms to lunch?>?>>> THAT coming from those charged with PROTECTING its citizenry..
So as a result the Natl guard became LESS effective than even yur average gun owner/carrier. Since when does the military HIDE themselves from aggression?
Rong, you have not addressed the point of the original poster, and I must say, virtually no gun enthusiast seems willing to do so:
What harm is caused a legitimate legal gun purchaser by a mandatory cooling off period and a robust background check, and mandatory gun use training?
your response seems to be about hypothetical situations with national guard, etc.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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This just in
Major gun crime collectively dropped for a fourth consecutive year statewide, while firearms sales climbed to a new record in 2012 with 490,119 guns purchased in 444,844 transactions — a 16 percent rise over 2011, according to federally licensed gun dealer sales estimates obtained by the Richmond Times-Dispatch.
The proliferation of guns occurred as the total number of major reported crimes committed with all types of firearms in Virginia dropped 5 percent, from 4,618 offenses in 2011 to 4,378 last year, according to Virginia State Police data.
Looking back over seven years, total firearm sales in Virginia have risen a staggering 101 percent from 2006 to 2012, while gun-related crime has dropped 28 percent during that period.
http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/va-gun-crime-drops-again-as-firearm-sales-soar/article_a9a3cd36-dc50-5192-9b97-e14258e6168a.html
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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See any difference in crime stats between California and any of the "instant check" states? I didn't think so.
As pointed out, over and over and over again, the data is inconclusive. You don't think so, but you don't know... but you convince yourself you do know... that is what makes you an idiot.
CA gun murders went down 3% from 2010 to 2011 (the period of data that I found readily available). The majority of states without a waiting period saw an increase in gun murder rate during the same period. Of course, you think you already KNOW waiting periods (and other gun legislation) are ineffective and no amount of ACTUAL data will change what you BELIEVE. Again, that is what makes you an idiot.
You know about the Brady Bill, right? You know when it was introduced, right? (hint: look for the steady decrease in handgun homicides) You know when the waiting period imposed by the Brady Bill expired, right? (hint: look for where the handgun homicides stop declining). I'm sure it is just another coincidence... you KNOW better, dontcha... idiot.
more info:
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf#page=27
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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As Mark Twain said, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics." Interpret and apply them 'em how you wish.
You know, the "fvktard" and "idiot" bit is really wearing thin, even for taco threads (and that's saying something!). Perhaps it's time for Chris to get involved in this thread (and/or review some user accounts) to see if this sort of vitriol is exactly what he was referring to regarding changing the complexion of this forum to hang onto his advertisers.
You guys "win" (in your own minds) by basically browbeating everybody else off of the threads you frequent. And then you cite the "nobody can provide a logical response" line as "proof" that you've "won." It's pretty self-serving and intellectually dishonest. Nobody that disagrees with you can keep up with your insults, nor are we willing to endure them for very long. So you "win" debates by just being so painful that nobody wants to engage anymore. It's not a discussion; it's a few of you guys doing nothing but lobbing constant and even vile insult-grenades.
Not everybody (in fact, virtually nobody) that disagrees with you or your interpretations of the "damned lies" that are statistics are idiots. And, as I pointed out upthread, even the philosophical relevancy of your chosen statistics is up for grabs; and people questioning that relevancy are certainly not idiots!
How about showing some basic human respect while you are so stumping for saving human life?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Tell me ,, how does one conclude someone is mentally ill if they have not shown any tenancies of said afflictions?
one sign is arguing with hedge...
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Perhaps it's time for Chris to get involved in this thread...
Go ahead, cry to daddy. Waaaaaa... the smart kids won't accept my blatant misinterpretation of facts as valid... waaaaaaa.
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jstan
climber
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I heard a joke sort of on this topic. Can't tell it till this thread has gone the way all threads go.
Edit:
It went even as I was typing.
Woman walks into a drug store. Says to the pharmacist, "I need some arsenic." Pharmacist asks her what she needs it for. She says, "I need to kill my husband."
Somewhat put back the pharmacist says", If you were to do such a thing you would be in serious trouble. And the sheriff will want to know where you got it. I can't give you any."
Woman hands him a photo. Of her husband in bed with the pharmacist's wife.
Now much more relieved the pharmacist tells the woman, "I am sorry. You should have told me right away that you had a prescription."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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What this thread needs is some Loctite.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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This thread, with a few exceptions, is people telling each other their opinions over and over and over
and over.
and not listening. Madbolter has already answered your question about 100 posts ago Harry. I agree with his most recent as well.
Madbolter said: "As Mark Twain said, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics." Interpret and apply them 'em how you wish.
You know, the "fvktard" and "idiot" bit is really wearing thin, even for taco threads (and that's saying something!). Perhaps it's time for Chris to get involved in this thread (and/or review some user accounts) to see if this sort of vitriol is exactly what he was referring to regarding changing the complexion of this forum to hang onto his advertisers.
You guys "win" (in your own minds) by basically browbeating everybody else off of the threads you frequent. And then you cite the "nobody can provide a logical response" line as "proof" that you've "won." It's pretty self-serving and intellectually dishonest. Nobody that disagrees with you can keep up with your insults, nor are we willing to endure them for very long. So you "win" debates by just being so painful that nobody wants to engage anymore. It's not a discussion; it's a few of you guys doing nothing but lobbing constant and even vile insult-grenades.
Not everybody (in fact, virtually nobody) that disagrees with you or your interpretations of the "damned lies" that are statistics are idiots. And, as I pointed out upthread, even the philosophical relevancy of your chosen statistics is up for grabs; and people questioning that relevancy are certainly not idiots!
How about showing some basic human respect while you are so stumping for saving human life? "
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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What this thread needs is some Loctite.
Nah, needs some of this,
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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I really couldn't give a shite if waiting periods work or not. If the NRA does not want them then I'm 100% in favor of the longest waiting periods possible.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Idiots KNOW gun legislation doesn't work.
Brady Bill... federal waiting period... 1994 to 1999
I guess we could "blame" the decrease on Clinton if you prefer.
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