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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jun 27, 2013 - 12:55am PT
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My point is "intellectualizing?" Surely you jest. It's the exaxct opposite of that. I'm looking at the whole thing at the root, instinctual level, long before thought enters the picture. The intellectual reasoning begins once we start making up our mythologies about "why" we like to kill things, always in moral, religious, or defensive termjs, havikng nothing to do with the spectacular rush and addictive no-holds barred charge at the other guy.
Simply put, aggression is to violence and "self-defense" was booze is to alcoholism. You remove the aggression and the booze, you still have the problem to
deal
with, but the means suddenly change because they have to.
Again, you are trying to understand peoples' aggression and why they are angry. I don't care!
Americans have a reputation for picking the solemn fight, the righteous one, in terms of serving people. And yeah, people, the aggressors get killed! WE KILL THEM>
It isn't always wrong, JOhn. Sometimes people need a killing.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:01am PT
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You guys got Bluey all excited and he is spewing stupidity!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 27, 2013 - 11:02am PT
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Again, you are trying to understand peoples' aggression and why they are angry. I don't care!
Not only do you not care, you have virtue and honor and all kind of ritious stuff piled on top of killing. My only point is that this is entirely true, by your own admission, which renders abasurd any arguments or discussions about the subject, seeming that the outcome will always issue direcly from your conviction that "some people need a killing."
For the killing to ever stop, this conviction will have to change - we can easily see why.
In the meantime, believing as you do, there is no reason to get upset about Americans getting shot up in Pakistan because you've already said "you don't care."
So around and around we go . . .
JL
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 27, 2013 - 11:16am PT
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So, Mr Largo, if you're walking down the street and some psycho starts
attacking your daughter do you just turn the other cheek and reason with him?
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Jun 27, 2013 - 11:56am PT
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sorry Bluey but Rsin nails it...and Largo...and Reilly
Killing sucks...war sucks...especially for religeons or corporations...
We should love both the people here at home and abroad to get our message across...
Killing should only occur when we are defending our country (and then go after the people who did it--not a country next to the people who did it).
I don't want our boys going to Pakistan, Syria, or any other country unless we are attacked on our soil.
And no a terrorist attack isn't justification for war unless it is state sponsored.
We can get killed in tragic ways everyday...mostly by preventable accidents
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 27, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
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Seems there are two human attributes that are at once evolutionary gifts but also terrible faults in the context of a civilized life: aggression and the remarkable social need for allegiance to a group. In the context of the group the universal human good, "I and the other are one," is sacrificed to the desperate need to belong. In belonging is the protection of the group, in aggression that protection is validated and strengthened.
It is the inevitable human tragedy.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 27, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
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Seems there are two human attributes that are at once evolutionary gifts but also terrible faults in the context of a civilized life: aggression and the remarkable social need for allegiance to a group.
There you have it. Pretty basic, really. The question is: what do you do about it.
I would just point out the examples people give of their justified use of deadly force, which are always hooked up with their survival or beating off an aggressor. But what most are really doing is maintaining their right to kill the other guy. I'm not trying to evaluate any of this on moral or even in terms of self-defense. I'm simply pointing out that the active ingreedient is not the context, but the underlying aggression.
Once people start ponying up reasons and strategies for dealing with aggression by other means than brute force, then the paradigm might shift. Till then, it must, perforce, remain tit for tat.
It also makes it absurd to talk about resolving things like the Israel-Palestinian conflict till both parties decide to put down the guns. Unlikely in our lifetime since, as this thread proves, people hold their right to blow the "enemy" away as a sacred mandate. It was, at one time. And that time, apparently, has not changed and many people are fine with that, lsot as they are in their "reasons."
So be it. But we might as well admit it and know where we are: cave dwellers with technology.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2013 - 01:26pm PT
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cave dwellers with technology.
I've been saying that for years.
No advancement of modern men at all except for more bodily consciousness.
Modern man moved into the cave man consciousness.
Modern man has devolved not evolved.
Mankind thousands and thousands of years ago used to be very highly evolved and highly conscious.
Now a days modern mankind is stupider than ever. No fuking brains, just stupid robots.
Stupid modern technology has only progressed for humans to fall down into worst than animal consciousness.
Animals are not even as stupid as modern mankind. They never go against their nature.
This modern age of hypocrisy and quarrel of stupid people throwing rocks at each other all day in the form of stupid wasteful technology that reduces lifespan.
Stupid modern people think that the lifespan has increased.
It has actually decreased when in you take all the stupid life decreasing factors that technology has created.
The world is miserable despite the so called advancement of civilization.
Stupid brainwashed modern scientists have no clue what the fuk they really are doing ......
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 27, 2013 - 01:53pm PT
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In law school, between my first and second years, I had the summer off so I decided to spend it in Afghanistan. My school wrote me a letter about an independent study project, that got me a visa and off I went, this was in 2003. To make a long story short, they have tribal codes that are passed down as an oral tradition. This makes it really hard to study since they don't write anything down. Basically, when there is a problem, the tribal elders get together and decide what to do. This could mean banishing the person, and burning down their house so they never come back. (Afghans have tribal land rights, something the Soviets tried to break up but couldnt) There are odd laws that may be particular to Afghanistan. Such as, a women is the guilty party if she lets herself get raped. She could even be executed for dishonoring the tribe. One time (I read in the news), a man was found guilty of having sex with a goat. His punishment was that the village held a ceremony and he had to marry it.
If there is a problem between tribes, the result is often war. The basic rule is that you can get an equal amount of revenge against anyone in the tribe, not just the perp. An eye for an eye, is law number one. But you can get this revenge against any enemy tribe member. Often it is disputed who started these fights, where different tribes are trying to even the score. But that is your right, under ancient tribal law. The strangest part is that the US Army PRTs, who go around trying to do public relations, distribute the pre-Soviet legal codes to all the villages, to try to get the elders to use them. That's how far back in time they had to go to find something enacted by a democratic government. This old legal code is pure Sharia law, based on the Hanafi code from 700 years ago or so. But compared to the tribal code they now use, called the pashtunwali, its a big improvement.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
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how about this - evangelical fundamentalism .... as applied to the whole barrel of apples.
Do you realize that "evangelical fundamentalism" as applied to Christianity is a contradiction in terms? Evangelicalism was a direct reaction to Fundamentalism. Personally, I would define a religious radicals as those whose religious beliefs are sufficiently strong to cause them to order their life internally (and not just externally) around those beliefs. To me, someone like Lynnie or Micronut epitomize a radical Christian, because we can see their belief in their lives.
In contrast, Westboro Baptist Church, say, is anything but radical because their actions demonstrate a conscious disregard not only for Jesus's explicit command that you love your neighbor as yourself, but also a disregard for the must basic of Christian doctrine, namely that we are sinners justified not by our actions, but by the sacrifice of Christ.
Others, it seems, define a religious radical as someone who hates anyone not adhering to his or her religion, to the point where they would resort to violence either to force "conversion," or to eradicate them. That's the tautology to which I refer.
Really, I think Paul Roehl gets it right. The issue isn't religion, it's tribalism and aggression.
John
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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I say we're "Pond Scum with Testosterone."
Largo/Werner say/agree we're "Cavemen with Technology."
I think we are making the same point.
___
Ron Anderson says: we have "restraint within us." Hum? Given the right pressures and circumstances, I think everyone "breaks down" and the "restraint" comes off. Hence, thinking "we" are "better" than "them" is a judgment and claim for superiority which I question.
___
Don Paul: Please elaborate upon the "Pashtunwali." Any sources that elaborate thereon which you believe are accurate?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jun 27, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
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Largo and Werner become what they tell themselves that they are. It's a choice each and everyone has to make. Tell yourself you can't choose and you won't choose.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jun 27, 2013 - 03:05pm PT
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A very small percentage of people resort to violence to solve their problems. That percentage goes up under the right pressures but still remains in the minority.
Even among soldiers the military was surprised to find that in a firefight many of their soldiers never fired a shot.
Sadly the humans who resort to violence dominate headlines. Unlike the vast numbers who go out of their way to help a fellow human being.
Yes we are cavemen with technology. But overall the human condition is a positive one.
I see good reasons to believe that the human condition can continue to improve overall. And only one that suggests we are in for a serious downturn.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 27, 2013 - 03:22pm PT
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A very small percentage of people resort to violence to solve their problems. That percentage goes up under the right pressures but still remains in the minority.
^^^
As individuals very few people resort to violence, but in larger groups people often behave in ways they would not even imagine on their own. Violent behavior by ethnic, political, cultural and religious groups is sadly quite "normal." Often such a group will rely on a select few to do their violence on their behalf.
Speaking for myself I've never much liked being part of a group of more than about 4. I never much liked church, the scouts, political parties etc.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 27, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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Largo and Werner become what they tell themselves that they are.
So here you have Marlow saying I am my own God and a product of my own personal messages to my own self. Then others say we are the way we our by "nature."
Fact is, my nature is very low down and selfish. Most every tiny step I have taked toward self-mastery is in going against my nature via contrary action. It is never enogh to simply tell myself or give myself orders, then have it become so, as Marlow suggests. Perhaps this works for others, but for me I have to take actions.
JL
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Jun 28, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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The Aaron Hernandez story backs up the Largo/TWP thesis of the problem being human aggressiveness. For the facts I use in this proof, please read this story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/28/sports/football/former-patriots-player-also-being-investigated-for-murders-in-2012.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&ref=todayspaper
Here we have a human who has it all, with no need or incentive to participate in violent killing of another human, yet did so for what motive?
Simply stated: he killed other alpha males who stood up to him or showed him "disrespect." Simple chest thumping.
And of course, this perpetrator and his victims all fit into my age 18-25 bracket when the "testosterone-enraged male syndrome" is at its peak. Add in a few steroids to the hormones and the aggression just oozes out: like as graphically depicted in my metaphor of "pond scum on testosterone."
By the way, it's Mr. Hernandez an American? Whose actions are not influenced by religious zealotry?
My take on Islamic fundamentalism is simple. It is chest thumping/alpha males aggressiveness rationalized with religious pretexts.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 28, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
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Please elaborate upon the "Pashtunwali."
Someone was interested in my sidetrack, cool. I found only one book that really describes it, in the UVa Law Library, called The Pathan Borderland by James Spain. From my notes:
Revenge and hospitality are the central principles of the Pashtunwali, which sets forth the "demands of honor." These two principles are called badal and melmastia.
Badal is the duty of a victim to settle the score with a person who has injured or insulted him. The obligation of badal extends to the injured or insulted clan as a whole; likewise, the injury may be avenged by action against the aggressor's clan, not just the aggressor. The duty to avenge an injury remains as long as a single member of the injured clan survives. This practice has given rise to blood feuds wiping out entire families and small tribes.
The second demand of the Pashtunwali is melmastia, or hospitality and protection of guests. Violence or injury to a guest is rare, because of the obligation of melmastia and also because the host would acquire the obligation of badal to avenge the attack on his guest. The protection generally extends only to the home of the host, but may encompass a wider area for a guest of the community or tribal leader. A possession of the sponsor would traditionally be worn by the guest, as a symbol of protection, or the guess might be accompanied by an escort or given a letter of safe passage, called a badragga.
Melmastia is not to be confused with a process called nanawati, in which the one who caused the injury, in order to avoid the consequences of badal, throws himself at the mercy of his victim. In nanawati, the aggressor arrives at the victims' home, bringing with him his women, unveiled and bearing the Koran, along with a sheep to be sacrificed. The victim may forgive the aggressor or not, and still retains the right of badal.
The Pashtunwali also provides for the pardoning of an offense committed by a sayyid (a descendant of the Prophet Mohammad) or a mullah, and prohibits the killing of a woman, a Hindu, a minstrel, a boy not yet circumcised, a man taking refuge in a mosque or shrine, or a man engaged in battle who begs for shelter.
What I was trying to do was build "rules of law" from non-lawyer descriptive narratives of the tribal codes. I did the same thing for the actual legal code, which is almost a pure version of the ancient Hanafi code. My original idea for the project was to see what changes the Taliban made to the legal system after taking power. That turned out to be too hot a topic for anyone to want to help me with. They did rewrite all the legal codes, changing them from Dari into Pashto, but since the Taliban are also Hanafi muslims, I'm not sure what exactly they wanted to change. The Hanafi code is pretty strict.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jun 28, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
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cave dwellers with technology
The taliban has technology because of monetary support from other muslims.
The muslims have money because of oil.
It's time that we had an Apollo-style push to eliminate the need for fossils fuels within the next decade.
Doing so would shut off the limitless influx of money to war-like muslims.
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