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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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May 14, 2013 - 11:37am PT
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Ok, if you don't like a thread, are offended just DON"T click on it. I have no interest in many of the threads on ST and just pass them by. Seriously, some of the women out there are just a tad bit too uptight~ chill why don't you!
Karen
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Bowser
Social climber
Durango CO
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May 14, 2013 - 11:42am PT
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If you don not like boobies, don't click on the "Boobie Tread."
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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May 14, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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Wow first time in a year or two that I have been able to get ST on my computer at work.
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John M
climber
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May 14, 2013 - 11:54am PT
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Its been pointed out that its not just about boobs.. and its been pointed out that the pics show up on all kinds of threads. Its not contained on just one thread. So not clicking on one thread does not work.
Locker says its controlling him if he can't post those kinds of pictures, but isn't it also controlling others if you post stuff that is offensive to them and it isn't contained in a clearly defined thread. How does one avoid it if it shows up in any thread?
I don't have a problem with the boobs. I have a problem with the lack of respect. Its 13 year old boy time around here at times. I told moosedrool that he and I would have serious problems if he ever said some of the things he said on the forum to my face. He doesn't have the courtesy to apologize. He did pull the post, but then he just went into hiding. But Bruce says he is a nice guy and anyone who disagrees with him is a puritan. Never mind that plenty of others have quit the forum and they are just told to toughen up. So there is a double standard.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 11:56am PT
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Calling Jan "full of shit" is off base and, well,....full of sh#t.....
And Russ's sketch is ummmm, weak, for an art major....which he was.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 14, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
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one might wonder why the medical procedure that a popular hollywood actress elected to endure as a prophylactic against highly probable cancer warranted an explanation on the OpEd pages of the NYTimes...
...it seems entirely logical and clear headed, remove the source of risk.
The apparent reticence of similar at risk individuals to the procedure speaks to the issues of culturally determined roles and values; and to this thread (if you take a bit of time to think beyond your own libido).
Words get thrown up around here "beautiful," "artistic," "obscene," "prudishness," "offensive," "descent," "desire," "lewd," "exploitative," "control," "tasteful," "tasteless," "objectification," "violence," "stereotypying," "judgemental." And the idea of personal liberty vs. community responsibility and all that...
...how come?
I believe that 8 gals have responded (by my count) and while there is a range of opinions, what seems to happen when they suggest that the posting of "boobs" might be inappropriate in some situations on a climber's forum, their statements are rejected by a majority of guy responses in very strong terms.
This topic isn't the first one to discuss this on STForum, and gals that responded to those in the past have refrained from entering the fray here... even though they have excellent points to make in this "discussion." I assume the negative responses are not worth making the point, that the tendency of the guys to shout down any perceived infringement of their "rights" is not addressable by a reasoned argument from a different point of view.
Anyway, if anyone is sensitive to the cultural and social issues, and framing those issues from an etic approach, it's Jan. The rest of us are swimming in the emic here... and are, apparently, unaware of it.
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hillrat
Trad climber
reno, nv
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May 14, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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Lets go back to the control argument, and forget about gender. Its been clearly pointed out that men have expressed disgust with the boob thread as well as women. In either case the argument seems to be that theyre morally opposed because they find the images degrading and objectifying of women.
And so they wish to censor content. They want to limit it to what they feel is appropriate and relavent content on this public climbing forum.
I dont see anyone object in the form of censorship when a thread turns to the topic of abortion, which it seems evokes far stronger moral responses on both sides. Is it because that topic lacks imagery?
No, jan and others are right- its all about control and who gets to determine whats appropriate material here.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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May 14, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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I like Karen.
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John M
climber
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May 14, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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Right on Ed. Great post!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 14, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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"And so they wish to censor content."
My guess is that CMac & co enjoy breasts as much as most of us do, and that the level of 'tolerance' they have for such imagery posted on ST has nothing to do with any kind of moral messaging, and everything to do with the interests of seeing ST grow and succeed.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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May 14, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
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Personally I am wondering how folks on Supertopo are actually harmed by the boob threads. Seems safer just to not click on threads that have unappealing words in the subject line.
Clicking on a thread is a voluntary action. It is my opinion that we as individuals are responsible for our own actions.
Sooo... If I am adverse to attending one of those seasonal haunted houses that pop up in October every year but voluntarily choose to enter and am offended or scared by what I see, should I complain and petition to have the haunted house shut down?
Probably, it is the P.C. thing to do.
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John M
climber
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May 14, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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Personally I am wondering how folks on Supertopo are actually harmed by the boob threads. Seems safer just to not click on threads that have unappealing words in the subject line.
I will say it
Again..
The pics show up on more then just the boob thread.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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May 14, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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Agreed but I am speaking to the BOOB threads.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 14, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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It's a community issue...
...from my own point of view it seems difficult to go through the process of posting climbing relevant threads that might be useful to the community if the response to it is going to be small compared to the apparently much more attractive thread featuring boobs...
in the totally unrestrained event that boob-like threads dominate, why bother to post climbing content at all? it's just going to sink off the front page and into obscurity.
at that point, I start wondering if posting on a climbing specific web site like Mountain Project or Summit Post, or Yosemite Climber's Association isn't a preferable venue for my climbing posts than STForum.
We, the community of participants here, make the Forum what it is, for better of for worse. You all certainly have the "right" to post what you think, or not to post at all. Don't believe for a minute that the exhibition of "your right" doesn't turn off others, and eventually might result in people not participating.
When the OP asks for a discussion, and we get a shout-down instead, there is no real mystery to why many people don't participate here anymore.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 14, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
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I don't get it
Why is it that quite a few women here are the
only ones to voice heir objections to boob threads?
Who cares what they think anyway...
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splitter
Trad climber
SoCal Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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May 14, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
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i like karen +1
simply on account of she has moxie.
personally i don't give a damn one way or another about boob threads.
ain't too many things that will offend me. i do deplore peeps/sites (to some extent) that practice a double standard. that was what my post was in regards to (7:26am).
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 14, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
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I was lurking through this thread, but I finally have a comment.
re Kennyt's post:[quote] problem solved, no tits here. http://www.srcfc.org/Forums/[/quote]
All I can say about the SRCFC is: Oh Christ!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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Clicking on a thread is a voluntary action. It is my opinion that we as individuals are responsible for our own actions.
I love it when someone makes it clear and brief. (So an idjit like me can digest...)
Conclusion: Count me as one with a changed mind.
Out of respect for the many high quality people/women who visit this forum, I will no longer post to boob threads or post sexually suggestive material.
I reserve the right to lurk.
So sayeth survival.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
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May 14, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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There IS an ugly overtone of bullying, especially of the women who speak up.
and
So far in a thread asking women what they think, four women have responded and thirty guys. A significant portion of the thirty guys then proceed to tell the women that they are prudes, sexually uptight, jealous, and mean spirited, and defend the idea that they should be able to post what ever where ever, never mind what the site administrators and their advertisers think. I still say the bottom line issue is not art, and not sex, but power.
and
When the OP asks for a discussion, and we get a shout-down instead, there is no real mystery to why many people don't participate here anymore.
THAT is what upsets me whenever the "boob issues" come up. Anyone who says "these images don't belong here"(on the site in general or in a particular thread) are called prudes, told to "not click" on threads that contain the images(ignoring completely that people are talking about threads NOT related to the topic of "boobs") and other tactics meant to intimidate and/or bully.
Yes, it certainly does show how ugly some of those here on Suertopo actually are.
I received an email from Lolli regarding a post I made early in this thread. She gave permission to quote it, and so I provide the text here:
"Reilly's statement is pure fantasy. We NEVER had lockerrooms together with the boys. What an utterly silly idea.
All the stupid excuses for the right to be a sexist.... It seems to me as many have been blunted by the sheer amount of sexist posts.. I wonder how that constant appraisal of female member's bodies might feel if one has lost a breast due to cancer, for instance?
Some posts are inexcusable, like to have the gall to comment upon a another member's body, for instance..Not my achievements, not who I am, but how I look like. Go to hell, is my answer. It's plain by a multitude of posts that achievements by women come second to their looks in the view of many men on the Taco.
As I see it, the management of the site doesn't have any problem with a sexist agenda from a very loud group. They allow a lot of harassment, lies and false judgements towards women, but they banned the woman who protested against women being seen as an objects. Not the men who treat women both in general and as fellow members as objects they have a right to comment upon. There has been sexually insinuating comments regarding underage daughters of several members, including my own daughter, and nothing happens to the members who makes them. They have by their way to manage the site shown that female members are considered as second rate members. It's hard to see any other reason but that the management of Supertopo agrees with, or have themselves, a sexist view upon women.
There's a difference in culture among northern Europe and America, and it's often grossly misunderstood. As is the theories that I wouldn't mind the boobs thread, because we see bare breasts on the beaches etc. Which, by the way, isn't the truth. It's unfashionable since way back, but no big deal. If you were here 30 years ago, yes. Now? Ha!
We don't mind nudity or sex, but strongly dislike porn. There's a strong sense of porn being equal with criminality, trafficking and prostitution. It's dirty. Not because of the sex, but because it carries along so much other bad things. I mean, one can see sex on the regular television, but it's not porn, it's usually either in a film or in a documentary. Sex isn't seen as bad. There's an easily seen difference which image is mere nudity and which is exploitive of women. And what's posted on the Taco, is exploitive images, not just nude people.
It's strange how a thing like this reveals a lot about some people. I guess I known all along, but didn't really take notice. It's such an oldfashioned view to take, it's amazing how they haven't kept in touch with how things have changed. Sexists are like the racists of bygone days. They're fighting for their right to remain oppressive and chauvinist. Nowadays nobody questions a professional because of the skin colour. But sexists, they're still back in that phase, in a way of thinking of bygone days, when it comes to women.
Yes, I left because of a personal reason, the boob thread and the general attitude towards women on this site. I don't belong here. I feel no need to be subjected to an oldfashioned and loud group of losers who scream loudly if they may not flag their sexist attitude in any given thread. But I don't fight windmills, I got other things to do instead.
I do miss the decent people though, even if they're awfully quiet sometimes. See you in the autumn!
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hillrat
Trad climber
reno, nv
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May 14, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
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Well, whatever. Management has to balance freedom of expression with retaining members and maintaining a constructive community. If they see it degrade to the point where quality contributions disappear and it becomes no more than a raunchy pissing match, then censorship will come. See Locker,s penis thread from yesterday. Oh wait, thatwgot censored.
Best to do your part by posting your own quality climbing threads and encourage the threads of others by giving them a bump.
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