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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Feb 13, 2013 - 10:21pm PT
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cops say they did not intend to set house on fire,
but used fire starting teargas,
what is average IQ of LAPD/SanBerdoo cop?
just another freak from the freak kingdom gone,
more food and toilet paper for us,
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 13, 2013 - 10:22pm PT
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Police: can't live without them, can't live with them... especially if you have killed a cop or are a mentally ill homeless man in CA.
Burning him out is murder, end of story. I have no love for the guy that got killed, but last time I checked it took years to enact a death sentence. this guy got no due process. It is sad to see so few people give a f*#k about how this went down. most of american is to stupid to understand and to busy to care about how we are becoming a police state.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 13, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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Update Feb. 13, 2013, 7:30 p.m.:
San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon said at a press conference Wednesday afternoon that the fire was not set on purpose. "We did not intentionally burn down that cabin to get Mr. Dorner out," McMahon said. However, McMahon said one type of tear gas used was "pyrotechnic" and acknowledged that it "does generate a lot of heat." McMahon said the fire "erupted" after police launched the pyrotechnic canisters, which are called "burners," into the cabin.
In the police audio, which was broadcast on CBS affiliate KCAL-TV on Tuesday, frantic voices of officers can be heard, including one officer apparently saying "Burn it down" or "Burn him out," while another officer appears to shout, "F*ing burn this motherf**r!"
The audio's veracity could not be confirmed.
Click the video above to hear the police audio from KCAL-TV.
In addition, a video that has surfaced on YouTube appears to include another recording of police audio from Tuesday's standoff. In the audio, which could not be independently confirmed, a voice says, "We're gonna go forward with the plan, with the burn ... Like we talked about."
A short while later a male voice says: "Seven burners deployed and we have a fire." A female voice then responds: "Copy. Seven burners deployed and we have a fire."
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ec
climber
ca
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Feb 13, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
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How Law Enforcement and Media Covered Up the Plan to Burn Christopher Dorner Alive
Max Blumenthal
February 13, 2013 |
At approximately 7 PM ET, I listened through a police scanner as San Bernadino Sheriffs gave the order to burn down the cabin where suspected murderer Christopher Dorner was allegedly hiding. Deputies were maneuvering a remote controlled demolition vehicle to the base of the cabin, using it to tear down the walls of the cabin where Dorner was hiding, and peering inside.
In an initial dispatch, a deputy reported seeing “blood spatter” inside the cabins. Dorner, who had just engaged in a firefight with deputies that killed one officer and wounded another, may have been wounded in the exchange. There was no sign of his presence, let alone his resistance, according to police dispatches.
It was then that the deputies decided to burn the cabin down.
“We’re gonna go ahead with the plan with the burner,” one sheriff’s deputy told another. “Like we talked about.” Minutes later, another deputy’s voice crackled across the radio: “The burner’s deployed and we have a fire.”
Next, a sheriff reported a “single shot” heard from inside the house. This was before the fire had penetrated deeply into the cabin’s interior, and may have signaled Dorner’s suicide. At that point, an experienced ex-cop like him would have known he was finished.
Over the course of the next hour, I listened as the sheriffs carefully managed the fire, ensuring that it burned the cabin thoroughly. Dorner, a former member of the LAPD who had accused his ex-colleagues of abuse and racism in a lengthy, detailed manifesto, was inside. The cops seemed to have little interest in taking him alive.
“Burn that f*#king house down!” shouted a deputy through a scanner transmission inadvertently broadcast [3] on the Los Angeles local news channel, KCAL 9. “F*#king burn this motherf*#ker!” another cop could be heard exclaiming.
While live ammo exploded inside the cabin, the deputies pondered whether the basement would burn as well – they wanted to know if its ceiling was made of wood or concrete. They assumed Dorner was hiding there, and apparently wanted to ensure that he would be burned to a crisp. “Because the fire is contained, I’m gonna let that heat burn through the basement,” a deputy declared.
SWAT teams airlifted to the location were told to be ready in case Dorner did manage to escape. “Guys be ready on the number four side [the front of the cabin],” a deputy declared. “He might come out the back.”
Just after 7 PM (10 PM PT), right when the orders were given to deploy the “burners,” the San Bernadino Country Sheriff’s Department Public Information Officer Cindy Bachman hastily gathered reporters for an impromptu press conference. Claiming to know nothing new, she told reporters that she had no idea why the cabin was on fire, or who started the fire. Reporters badgered Bachman for information, but she had none, raising the question of why the presser was convened when it was.
Around the same time, the San Bernadino County Sheriff’s Department requested that all reporters and media organizations stop tweeting about the ongoing standoff with Dorner, claiming their journalism was “hindering officer safety.” As the cabin sheltering Dorner burned, the local CBS affiliate was reportedly told by law enforcement to zoom its helicopter camera out to avoid showing the actions of sheriff’s deputies. By all accounts, the media acceded to police pressure for self-censorship.
On Twitter, the Riverside Press Enterprise, a leading local newspaper, announced [4] on Twitter, “Law enforcement asked media to stop tweeting about the#Dorner case, fearing officer safety. We are complying.” The paper’s editors added, [5] “We are going to tweet broad, non-tactical details, as per the San Bernardino DA's request.”
“Per [San Bernadino Country Sheriff’s Department] request,” tweeted [6] the local CBS affiliate, KCBS, “we are complying and will not tweet updates on #Dorner search.”
At the time that I am writing this, some online media outlets [7] are beginning to entertain the possibility that San Bernadino County Sheriff’s deliberately set the fire that killed Dorner – a fact that I reported on Twitter as soon the sheriff’s department order came down. If there is any doubt about the authenticity of the YouTube clip [8] containing audio of the sheriff deputies’ orders to burn the cabin down, I can verify that it is the real thing. I was listening to the same transmissions when they first blared across the police scanners.
In the hours after the standoff, however, the police cover-up remained unchallenged thanks largely to local media complicity. An initialLos Angeles Times report [9] recounted the incident in a passive voice, claiming “flames began to spread through the structure, and gunshots, probably set off by the fire, were heard.” Similarly, LA’s ABC affiliate, KABC, quoted [10] Bachman’s vague comment about “that cabin that caught fire,” failing to explore why it was aflame or who torched it.
Today, the Los Angeles Times reported [11] claims by anonymous “law enforcement sources” that the sheriffs used “incendiary tear gas” to flush Dorner out of the cabin. The sources claimed the deputies who had besieged the cabin were under a “constant barrage of gunfire” and that, “There weren’t a lot of options.”
This is almost certainly a lie. The only mention by a deputy at the scene of a gunshot from inside the cabin was the “single shot” that occurred as soon as the “burners,” or incendiary teargas munitions, were deployed. After that point, deputies made constant mention of ammunition exploding inside the cabin as a result of the intense heat of the fire they set, but said nothing about any shots fired at them.
If there were a “constant barrage of gunfire,” it would have been the main source of concern among the police at the scene. Instead, they were preoccupied with ensuring that the fire burned the cabin completely without spreading into the surrounding woods.
There is a grand tradition of law enforcement using incendiary devices to assault besieged suspects, and of covering up their use. One of the most famous examples of this tactic, and its horrible consequences, was the Philadelphia Police Department’s bombing [12] of the compound of the radical black nationalist cult, M.O.V.E., dropping C-4 explosives by helicopter on the house, killing [13] 11 members of the group, including 5 children, and destroying 65 homes in the West Philadelphia neighborhood.
It was not until the 51-day FBI siege of the Waco, Texas compound of the messianic Branch Davidian cult that “burners,” or incendiary 40mm military grade cartridges, were used to burn a structure down. Six years after claiming that the Branch Davidians deliberately burned their own compound down, the FBI finally admitted [14] that it used incendiary rounds, but insisted that none of them contributed to the fire that consumed the compound.
The “burners,” or pyrotechnic rounds the San Bernadino County Sheriffs used to torch Dorner’s cabin, are likely similar, and perhaps more powerful, than those employed by the FBI in Waco. Through the five-year-old “Department of Defense Excess Property Program,” [15] the US military has provided police departments across the country with billions of dollars worth of military equipment, from amphibious tanks to AR-15 assault rifles, allowing the military to circumvent Posse Comitatus regulations by outsourcing their firepower to local cops.
“Burners,” or military grade incendiary grenades, are very likely among the items passed down from the US army to local police outfits like the San Bernadino Sheriff’s Department.The “burner” of choice for the modern American soldier is the AN-M14 TH3. [16] It is a hand held grenade comprised of a thermite mixture that rapidly converts to molten iron when it is thrown, burning at a temperature of 4000 degrees Fahrenheit, hot enough to burn through a half inch steel plate or bring an engine block to a boil. It can also produce enough heat to set off unloaded ammunition, which would explain why the ammo inside Dorner’s hideout was popping.
If the San Bernadino Sheriffs employed the AN-M14 TH3 or something like it against Dorner – and it appears they did – they have good reason to attempt to cover their actions up. Without even a token attempt to establish communication with the suspect, who was, to be sure, a wanted killer hell-bent on murdering cops, they attacked him with what was likely a military grade weapon designed to destroy fortified structures. By burning Dorner alive, then misleading and deceiving the public about the operation, the sheriffs may have validated the rogue ex-cop’s sharpest indictments of the culture of American law enforcement.
Yet no element in the Dorner drama was more disturbing than the performance of mainstream media. At every point, major news outlets complied with law enforcement calls for self-censorship, and still demonstrate little interest in determining how and why a lethal fire started on a snow-covered mountain in the dead of winter. As a quintessentially American tragedy reaches its denouement, the truth remains buried beneath a smoldering pile of ashes.
http://www.alternet.org/print/news-amp-politics/how-law-enforcement-and-media-covered-plan-burn-christopher-dorner-alive
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 13, 2013 - 11:15pm PT
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If some soldier in Toledo woke up one day in 1943, decided that the US was unfairly persecuting Germany, and proceeded to shoot some other soldiers on a train, should the soldiers get Purple Hearts because they were wounded by "enemy action?
Uh, yeah. Unless I'm missing something (always possible, I'm certainly not a military lawyer), this one seems pretty simple.
The Ft. Hood solider and your hypothetical Toledo soldier were both guilty of the crime of treason, right? Seems pretty clear that soldiers who are victims of treason would get a Purple Heart as they are, by definition, wounded by enemy action.
I think some people may be overlooking the fact that the Ft. Hood attack was both an act of workplace violence and an act of war against the US.
From the good ol' US Constituion:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 14, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
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The LAPD has another motive for killing Dorner. Actually they have one million motives.
Above is video from this past weekend of Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa announcing a $1-million reward for information that led to the capture of Christopher Dorner, the ex-cop turned suspected cop killer who at that point had been on the run from authorities for about a week. Word of the seven-figure payout quickly became part of a story that was already dominating national news, helping to bring in more than 1,000 tips as to the fugitive's whereabouts in the process.
For all intents and purposes that manhunt ended on Tuesday, when the cabin Dorner was believed to be holed up in burned to the ground as it was surrounded by police. So who will get that money once the case is officially closed? Probably no one. Here's Villaraigosa's full-quote from that news conference, see if you can spot the giant loophole:
"Yesterday leaders from throughout the region, including leaders from businesses and unions, government, law enforcement and community groups, came together to pool resources and protect our core value of public safety. Collectively this group, led by my office, is posting a reward of $1 million for information that will lead to Mr. Dorner's capture."
Yep, thanks to some careful phrasing, it appears as though the city can hold on to its cash because Dorner wasn't technically "captured" before he died. The official story out of the mayor's office is that it's too early to say whether it will pay out the reward or not, but from the sounds of it a payout seems unlikely. As LAPD officer Alex Martinez bluntly told CBS News: "There was no capture and no conviction. It's kind of a no-brainer."
That's not to say that the LAPD intentionally killed Dorner, but they certainly had the means, motive and opportunity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means,_motive,_and_opportunity
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 14, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
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^ ^ ^
There is a body of law surrounding "rewards." They're sort of interesting unilateral contracts that are generally discussed in law school contracts classes, not because they're commercially important but to illustrate some concepts regarding offer, acceptance, and performance.
Despite the LA cop's statement that this is a "no-brainer," I think I'd feel pretty good about the case if I gave info that led to the cops locating Dorner and they refused to pay.
Such a person would be entitled to discovery as to the circumstances of Dorner's death. Do you think the LAPD would really want to go there, rather than just pay $1M (or a good fraction thereof in a settlement) of other people's money?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 14, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
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You do realize you've just made the most contrived and dishonest argument for screwing over the survivors of a jihadist attack I've ever seen here.
(not you Locker)
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 14, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
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So any American who kills a soldier has committed treason?
Ummm, no. But any American who attacks a military base with the purpose of killing as many soldiers as possible--most likely yes. Treason is making war on the US:
e.g., killing a soldier because you're robbing him or are his pissed-off ex-wife--no
attacking a US military base--yes
Was the Fort Hood guy "aiding the enemy," making a political statement, or just pissed at his co-workers?
I don't have the answers, but I'm sure it's not "pretty simple."
We can't read his mind, but we can't read anyone else's mind either, and most serious crimes require proving some sort of intent on the part of the accused. Somehow we have millions of people in prison, who were all proved guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt."
Intent is proved by conduct and the totality of the circumstances. From published news accounts of the shooter's conduct, both before and after the shooting, this one seems "pretty simple" to me.
If it doesn't to you, well, a jury acquitted OJ, what can you say. Some people just refuse to connect the dots, either out of ignorance, ulterior motives, whatever.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite, ca
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Feb 14, 2013 - 06:54pm PT
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Maybe they were scared of getting killed by Chris Dorner so they tried to smoke him out of the house. It's easy to condemn their actions from behind the computer screen, but any of us in the same situation might act less than idealistically.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Feb 14, 2013 - 08:30pm PT
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They could of tossed or shot multiple canisters of tear gas in the cabin, that could have killed him or "smoked him out."
Burning down a cabin would do the same. But it would guarantee death.
Should of just surrounded the place and waited. That was another option.
But something tells me, they wanted him dead.
But in all honesty, if I were a cop, and one of my brothers in blue was just killed, another injured, I'd agree with the burn.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 14, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
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Just what the f*#k IS a terrorist?
Seems to me they are a modern version of dragon, for some purposes. Of course they are people, too, and dangerous ones at that, but the gazillions of dollars we paid to save us from communists have been effectively redirected toward a much more reliable threat. 'Creating a dragon' is a phrase used in medical research to chastise funding proposals which raise the specter of a threat likely to be less dire than stated or entirely imaginary.
edit:
DMT sure cleared out fast.
sneaky non-bumping second edit:
Wow! I get to forgive DMT twice: once for posting and again for removing his post.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 14, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
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Since everyone was presumably wearing armor we can assume that guy could really shoot. Two people in armor and he got both. All the deputies knew that, very well.
They had to settle it before dark. Once it was dark they could assume he would fire in each of the four quadrants to learn their force distribution. Then he would throw out more smoke canisters and try under cover of darkness either to attack their strength or to penetrate the perimeter.
After all that has gone down, would you have chosen to play into that scenario?
EDIT for GC's comments below:
Dorner's use of smoke canisters was reported in the media coverage at the time so I took that at face value. I disregarded the possibility of the presence of thermal imaging equipment for the following reasons:
1. When the SWAT team was forming up no IR equipment was visible.
2. Extensive equipment for illuminating the scene was not apparent and the scene was not illuminated. Thereby raising questions as to how extensive the planning had been for night action - generally.
3. In the presence of very hot portions of the scene imaging is made difficult. Scattered and reflected IR can suppress and even affect the thermal variations in the scene that make imaging reliable.
4. In order to penetrate smoke, imaging equipment has to work in the LWIR( Long Wave Infrared) between 8 and 14 microns( a gap in the water absorption bands). So called Uncooled IR Technology in the LWIR that is readily man portable has been available for several years now but SBC's budget may well have been unable to support purchase of a lot of this equipment. And nothing was apparent. Most gun sight imaging for the commercial market has been in the Mid Wave passband. The conversion to uncooled in the LWIR has been recent.
The imaging task presented in this case was difficult because of the smoke and fire. But even had there been neither fire nor smoke canisters, not resolving the situation before loss of light would have introduced new risk and less assured event control.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 14, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
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Dorner was no terrorist. That's workplace violence. Or just mayhem.
Dorner was a domestic terrorist if anyone ever was. Using violence and the threat of violence for a political purpose.(see his manifesto) Vengence Murder of civilians, Targeting of government also .. asymetric warfare.
If it were my ass on the line I'd have wanted him dead as quickly and safely as possible. I'd have offered 1 chance to him to surrender and walk out alive. Then I would have quickly dropped any and all deadly force possible on his head.
........
A totally different issue is the longtime corruption in southern California police forces. Any and all infractions by police in this or any other case should come down hard on the officers involved. Hopefully the spotlight from this incident will ensure it does.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 14, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
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Since everyone was presumably wearing armor we can assume that guy could really shoot. Two people in armor and he got both. All the deputies knew that, very well.
They had to settle it before dark. Once it was dark they could assume he would fire in each of the four quadrants to learn their force distribution. Then he would throw out more smoke canisters and try under cover of darkness either to attack their strength or to penetrate the perimeter.
No.
The SWAT teams have military-grade night vision and infrared equipment. There was is no "cover of darkness" for Dorner.
Also, he probably did not have any such equipment, or even if he did it probably not be of the same quality. So no only is there "cover of darkness" for Dorner, but the SWAT team would have the advantage. They would be able to so. Dorner would probably be blind.
Also, SWAT's infrared equipment would work better at night then in the day, making it even harder for Dorner to escape.
It wasn't Dorner throwing the smoke canisters, it was the cops.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 14, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Don't forget that they were not just firing incendiary devices into the building. They were also simultaneously tearing it down with him in it.
They were using an armored demolition vehicle that let them drive right up to the building and start knocking down walls without any fear that Dorner could shoot them.
They undoubtedly had access to other armored vehicles as well.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Feb 14, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
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As long as they gave him just one chance to surrender I'm good with dropping the walls in on him and firing the place. I wouldn't expect anyone to take one slight extra risk with that guy.. his being alive would be considered very real extra risk in this case.
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 14, 2013 - 10:19pm PT
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I guess it was the only way for those brave men to take out a "coward".
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 14, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
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The cops don't come out of this loking good at all.
Nevermind Django's original grievance, which if true, makes the cops in L.A. look like low-rent gangsters. That was rendered moot the minute he pointed a gun at his first victim.
Dude was hiding out right under the cops' noses the whole time! He was holed up in a vacant condo about a hundred yards from the big police "command center" by Snow Summit. What was the point, again, of having a massive police presence up in Big Bear,staging a masive *search*, if they can't even check the house right across the street.
And those cops up in Ventura panicked, pissed themselves, and shot up not one, but TWO innocent vehicles. Thank God the cops' marksmanship is no better than their piss-poor judgement, or else someone would have been killed.
And what became of all the bullets fired at Dorner himself? What was in the sights of the cops' guns when they squeezed their triggers? All cops supposedly have to *qualify* on the target range to be allowed to carry a gun. Street shootings should count as a Pop Quiz toward their marksmanship qualification. A poor score on a street shooting - like under 50% hit - should mean they lose their gun.
I think they're all paid way too much. And this episode bears that out.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Feb 14, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
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I think they're all paid way too much.
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