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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 01:18pm PT
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We are destined forever to disagree, I'm afraid, Karl. I believe that the Bible IS the holy and inspired word of God, and that salvation and renewal does not lie within myself. If it did, then why did Jesus die? Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me."
Another answer for LEB to chew on:
You speak of the millions of innocent Jews who never had a chance to accept Jesus because of their religion. The entire Jewish religion, as established by God on Mount Sinai when he gave Moses the law, is all about Jesus. All the sacrifices, all the feasts, the tabernacle, the Ark of the Covenant, these were all pointing to Jesus Christ, the Holy Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. The Old Testament is replete with references to the Messiah, pictures, symbols, and outright statements, pointing to the Christ, who was the culmination of the whole deal. When Christ died on the cross and rose again, he abolished the old law, the need for the tabernacle (remember, at His death the veil in the Temple was rent from top to bottom), and said: "Things are different now. Through me you have direct access to the Father. Your body (to those who believe) is now my temple, and my Spirit will dwell in you." After Jesus, the practice of Judaism became empty and void, because Jesus IS the culmination of Judaism. That the Jews can continue to study the law and the prophets and not acknowledge that Jesus is Christ is a result of purposeful blinding. In Second Corinthians Paul writes that just like Moses had to wear a veil to hide the glory shining from his face when he came off the mountain with the law, so today the Jews have a veil over their hearts when they read the scriptures, so that they undertand them not. Never a chance to believe in Jesus? the Jews have more chances than anyone; salvation is their heritage, for through their nation all nations have been blessed.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 01:22pm PT
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You hit the nail on the head LEB. Salvation is not dependent on good deeds, but on the grace of God. Haleluyah, what a Savior!
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Jun 20, 2006 - 01:47pm PT
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That is a good point to clarify Largo. Where there is guilt there must be a broken rule, otherwise there would be no responsibility to live up said rule, hence no guilt. One can break a rule and not feel shame, and vice versa. Guilt is a situation not an action or an emotion.
Shame is the self-pity for not being able to live up to whatever standard one tries to keep. It implies that you aren’t worthy of giving and/or receiving forgiveness which is bunk.
For man perfection = maturity = completeness and is a process not a position. It is a vector not a value. Does that answer the objection good enough?
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
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Well I answered that too LEB but you have to read between the lines to get it. One who lives a life such as Hitler makes it downright impossible to see the path to salvation in the eleventh hour, or any hour. Is it possible? Yes but highly unlikely compared to the average Joe who breaks a few rules along the path when he’s down on his luck. Could I stroll up the base of El Cap and free solo The Nose onsite? It is humanly possible but the odds aren’t good.
You’re dwelling in the realm of relativism. You’re probably a better person than many. You care for the sick with a powerful sense of duty. You stick to your guns even in the face of strong and credible opposition. You put up with a bunch of cynical climbers who often times forget to treat you like a lady, admirable qualities. But answer me this, how good are you compared to God?
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hoot
Mountain climber
cathedral city, ca.
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:15pm PT
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New Age leader John Dunphy said the following:
“I am convinced that the battle for humankind’s future must be waged and won in the public school classrooms by teachers who correctly perceive their role as proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call the Divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers. The classroom must and will become and arena of conflict between the old and the new – the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith…”
Yes...you know better than what gave you the fricken freedom to even write in this forum...Unfortunatley we will see how successful your NEW RELIGION is going to be!
"Thinking they were wise....they became fools..."
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:17pm PT
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The Zoroastrians have it right, perhaps. After death the soul is judged by "good words, good thoughts, good deeds", versus "bad words, bad thoughts, bad deeds" and the soul enters heaven or hell accordingly.
In the end, good triumphs over evil, and those in hell will be released.
Everyone has an equal chance:
"Thus, the Righteous of every religion go to heaven, all religions are equal, and it is folly to convert. Conversion goes against the Master Law of Ereta (righteousness) itself, because God has given us birth in our respective religions, to adore Him in them, and not to mistrust His Judgement and rebel and go over to another faith."
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keep looking up
Trad climber
San Francisco South Bay, CA
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:28pm PT
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Christ is perfect; I hide myself in Him; I am still an imperfect human, living in a fallen world, with an deceiving enemy that comes only to steal, kill and destroy the soul of man.
The blessings and the battles continue personal and worldwide in all times, and centuries, in all lives.
Christ Jesus made a way, only He overcame death.
This is the hope for all mankind,
and its a faith issue.
I believe, God help my unbelief.
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hoot
Mountain climber
cathedral city, ca.
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:31pm PT
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BTW
Bush..or Clinton..or Kennedy or Pat Robinson(for that matter) are NOT ambassadors of GOD.
Yes..I think we should get rid of Bush..but also Kerry…Gore…the Clintons ..the Kennedys…the Rockefellers …and most of the Politicians in the US and Canada
It’s really not true Christendom you are railing against …...it’s the status quo… and liberalism is part of that status quo ….and you are buying it..hook line and sinker. Wake up and smell the napalm.
Hoot
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hoot
Mountain climber
cathedral city, ca.
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:42pm PT
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TO 426
want to quote Jefferson?
"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? Thomas Jefferson: 1782
“that they are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights”
“We do not claim these under the charters of kings or legislators, but under the King of Kings." --Thomas Jefferson to John Manners, 1817
"The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774
Hoot
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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Guilt is the stock in trade of the Fundys. Putting insecure people under extreme emotional distress, then alternating between terror and rewards, they attempt to have their way.
Surely if they can convince you, they must be on the right track. After all, if enough of them believe what they say, at least one of them must have it right. Safety in numbers and damn the cost.
Brainwashing works best when begun at birth. Family loyalty contributes mightily. Works the same in politics. Neocons beget Neoconettes.
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hoot
Mountain climber
cathedral city, ca.
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:52pm PT
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And communists beget communists...
and since we are quoting..
"Communism has nothing to do with love. Communism is an excellent hammer which we use to destroy our enemy."
Author: Mao Tse-tung
"Communism possesses a language which every people can understand--its elements are hunger, envy, and death."
Author: Heinrich Heine
Give us a better plan...
Hoot
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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Jun 20, 2006 - 02:56pm PT
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Good posts, Jay
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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Hoot, you are about 20 years too late for Commie baiting. You need to focus on Secular Humanism or short shorts. Maybe sell a few prayer cloths or some prayed over Crisco for annointing various areas of the anatomy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
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"We are destined forever to disagree, I'm afraid, Karl. I believe that the Bible IS the holy and inspired word of God, and that salvation and renewal does not lie within myself. If it did, then why did Jesus die? Jesus said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." "
I didn't say it wasn't holy and inspired. Much of it is. Just not perfect. After all , there is no one author, some of it are letters from one guy to others that are easy to take out of context.
BTW. I totally study the bible and all perspectives of scholarship around it.
Don't confuse Jesus with the Bible. The little words we have from him don't include much, if any, exhortations to study scripture.
Jesus said he was the way. No problem with that. You could just as easily say that the human body cant live without water. Still, Aqua, Pani, H20 and watermelon will keep you alive too. Jesus is a universal being, not just a guy from 2000 years ago.
Don't lock him in a box of limited understanding. Did you know that his followers and disciples NEVER called him Jesus. There is no "J' sound in Hebrew or Aramaic. His name was probably Yeshua, and he NEVER celebrated the Sabbath on Sunday and neither did his disciples.
See beyond the modern culture of Christianity and Paulism. Look at what Jesus taught and not what was taught about him
Peace
Karl
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hoot
Mountain climber
cathedral city, ca.
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Jun 20, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
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Please..concider this….
Of course many so called Christians have done bad things! A no-brainer. But they were not following what they profess…. And many of these are so called fundamentalists…
We are focusing on personalities..and not principles here. The faults lay with the greedy and narcissistic sociopaths that prey on the weak, vulnerable and desperate in the name of any god(s) (or neo-gods…ie; socialism, communism, humanism et al.)
But please…name me one country in all of recorded history that spawned the freedoms that we are (currently at least) enjoying…that were not founded on Christian values. Think about it a sec before answering.
And while we are thinking…if you could be omnipotent for a day….. Do you have the answers?
Hoot
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jun 20, 2006 - 03:36pm PT
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Ben speaks the words of a true Believer who is firmly grounded in the Word of God. I wish I had more time to respond [but I'm heading back up the wall] but I will agree with most everything Ben writes.
The way you come to know God is to read his Word. Study the bible, it's cool! Not only will you understand what He is about, and how Christianity really ought to be [which is not necessarily what it is!] but the bible is a great handbook to living. Ask God to teach you what He wants you to learn, and you will be amazed at what He'll help you find.
Praise the LORD and pass the pitons!
In Him,
Pete
P.S. Poor Ben, he nearly croaked when I told him what his nickname means!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 20, 2006 - 04:03pm PT
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Jay wrote: "That is a good point to clarify Largo. Where there is guilt there must be a broken rule, otherwise there would be no responsibility to live up said rule, hence no guilt. One can break a rule and not feel shame, and vice versa. Guilt is a situation not an action or an emotion.
Shame is the self-pity for not being able to live up to whatever standard one tries to keep. It implies that you aren’t worthy of giving and/or receiving forgiveness which is bunk."
First, I´m coming at this from a psychological position, so in that context, guilt is very much a feeling, a felt sense of having done something wrong.
IMO, any system that seeks to use a negative emotion to motivate change will always fail in it´s effort to liberate people. Especially if the "rule" is to try and live up to a perfect ideal. Perfect is itself a shame-based idea when applied to people, since it assumes you can actually get there, which is shameless thinking. If you say you should try something that you will only fail at, ad nauseum, you´ve basically said that God intentionally created us flawed in order to foster our dependence on his grace. No thinking man is going to accept that as a viable cosmology. It turns God into a rat and a co-dependent con artist.
JL
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Jun 20, 2006 - 04:34pm PT
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I agree with you there Largo, shame based behavioralism is a bad idea and I didn't mean that kind of guilt.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 05:15pm PT
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LEB complains that Christians try to proselytize her, and in the next breath complains that the Gospel never got to millions of Native Americans, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. It is a Christian's responsibility to tell these people, and for shame if there are any today who have not heard about Jesus.
As for infants, the Bible doesn't say what happens to those who die before they are capable of reason, but it does make abundantly clear that God cares deeply for them. Jesus said, "Suffer (that means 'allow')the little children to come unto me, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven." His kingdom belongs to the little children! and in Matthew 18:10 He says, "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of my Father who is in heaven" I will not venture to guess what happens to dead babies, but again, I know that God does all things well. Lunchtime. More later
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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Jun 20, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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LEB - You’re tiring me out. How many pitches is this route anyway!? There are good and reasonable answers to those questions (the book of Romans is the place you find many) but instead of providing them all I’ll leave you with this.
I don’t like everything in the bible either, but I accept it. If it were up to me I’d probably leave out the eternal damnation thing. But I have a dilemma. I met the man who put it together and he confirmed its validity. I trust that he knows what he’s doing. And so I believe. This may sound strange but he once made a distinct promise to me. The promise was this.
In the face of all that is evil it matters not what happens from the beginning to the end of this age (however long it is), all the maliciousness that has happened or will happen, the hatred, death, destruction, starvation, disease, injustice, and all forms of struggle and strife. Not only will there be a time and a place where it will be no more but I the Lord will go back and wash it clean. Nothing will be left to rot, nothing will be left undone. I will restore it and you will experience it.
He said this to me in a more profound way than I can remotely describe. Given the enormity and his impressive display of genuine holiness that this message was offered in I had a no brainer decision to make. I thanked him and worshiped in ways I never thought possible. And oh BTW I grew up in that religion you say has no chance at receiving what I was in the process of receiving. I was even trained specifically to reject it.
LEB I do know answers to your latest questions. But I don’t know all the answers you may have. I’ve learned that I don’t need to. I just trust that the Messiah will come through for me and my family as he has promised me personally. I truly don’t worry all that much about it.
Although not specific in every case (as ben pointed out with babies) the bible says every man woman and child has an opportunity to decide whether the one who was hung on a cross 2000 years ago is the king of the universe or not. When he went down to the pit he went to the people who already died to give them that chance too. Just because each individual on the planet doesn’t have the same traditional situation or mindset or exp. or even conciousness to accept Jesus doesn’t mean they don’t get a fair chance. One thing is for sure, you have been presented the opportunity. You reject because it doesn’t seem fair to you. I’m totally fine with that. I would not want you to cross any bridges you’re not ready or willing to cross. If you did then I’d start worrying. Let no one manipulate, not even yourself. Stay pure and listen for his voice, he will guide you. His voice is good and brings peace and joy not shame and condemnation. That would be the voice of another.
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