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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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huckfuss is talking gobbledygook, riley, and so are you. hucky and i get along fine when he sticks to dr. F's threads, where i fear to tread.
i believe i brought up the triple alpha process earlier in this discussion. funny how none of you science brains picked up on that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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It occurs to me:
Calling natural selection a "force" was probably more colloquial than scientific on my part. Forgive me, you scientific language purists. :)
From such simple beginnings such magificence and spectacle. That is evolution. (Not to mention climbing.) To think that last night's BCS championship game, for instance, in all its detail including the blowout, was an evolutionary product billions of years in the making; or an example of what hydrogen atoms do given enough time banging about - that's pretty damn astonishing.
So incredible some of us "just above average apes" find it impossible to believe. Gobble gobble. :)
.....
As an aside to Healyje's post, and as another topic of interest (to a few?), sometimes I've wondered about the gene pools of other ETI's in the galaxy. (Assuming they exist in the first place.) For instance do they show more or less variation than ours. If the variation of gene pools of 100 of our closest ETIs were plotted out on a distribution curve, where would we stack up in the pile? And sometimes I think that the very variation that led to our evolution, incl our evolutionary robustness, might also turn out, in the end, to be our undoing. How ironic that would be.
Sometimes one can be honest to a fault. (So they say. Game theory, too.) Could our species, either already or at some point down the line, and esp, because we all have to share the same arena, court or field (that being this one and only planet), be diverse to a fault?
Imagine the "Hirogens" (ripped from Star Trek) as an ETI. Imagine that their variation or diversity both in their gene pool and on their planet in their history never became an existential threat because they had not one but two sibling planets to spread out to - providing them benefits unavailable to us H. sapiens, eg.., dozens to hundreds of extra generations in cultural evo to get their act together.
"Life's a crap shoot."
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WBraun
climber
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This guy wrote the Origin of the Species
No he didn't.
He wrote the "Theory" of the Origin of the Species.
Get your facts straight.
You're a terrible scientist .......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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re: epigenetics, etc.
Way earlier I was going to comment on epigenetics, then I remembered lessons learned from going deep on subjects here which amounts to mixed company. (Here I'm recalling a thread of mine a few years back on electricity and electrocution by battery.) If I've learned anything from this site, it is that you can't go too deeply on a subject (unfortunately) without the thread's contents careening off uncontrollably, unmeaningfully.
I don't think we're equipped here in mixed company to adequately distinguish epigenetics from epigenesis, etc.. that would lead on to any meaningful discussion. Could be wrong, though.
Examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenesis_%28biology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic_Theory
P.S.
Moreover...
I could only imagine how much MORE difficult it would be for ME to discuss these complex mechanisms in mixed company if English were not my first language!
Moose,
Is this right?
Czterech nukleotydów DNA są adeninę, tyminę, guaninę i cytozynę.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Don't know Polish. I wish!
You mentioned in some gun discussion you were Polish. I used google translator. Which apparently was not entirely correct, that's AI for you, lol.
.....
I've mentioned this terrific episode of Star Trek Voyager in past posts at least a couple of times. Distant Origin. Has anybody seen it? Storyline is intelligent. A terrific speculation. Not to mention some high human-voth drama in deep space. It's all about evolution. Ties right in with this thread: interesting topics of evolution. Check it out when you get the time...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_Origin
Yeah, it IS available at the The Pirate Bay. :)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Hypothesis: 1. a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without the assumption of its truth. 2 a supposition made as a starting point for further investigation from known facts.
Theory: 1. a supposition or system of ideas explaining something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the particul things to be explained.
Source: Canadian Oxford Dictionary.
Let's try to use these words correctly, eh?
Darwin's "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life", usually known as "On the Origin of Species" was perhaps both theory and hypothesis, in that there was considerable evidence for what Darwin proposed, and little to the contrary, but the underlying mechanism wasn't really understood until the discovery of DNA.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2013 - 04:35pm PT
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Yeah, so take THAT WBraun!
I need to study epigenetics. It is currently a big hole in my understanding of evolution. Here's the thing, though. If the logic and evidence pans out, I'll be only too willing to change my views on the topic and will be perfectly fine knowing that my former worldview got some things wrong. Eyes wide open.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
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I think I may have found what Werner is talking about. In going through my library, I see a book my Charles T. Darwin, called 'The theory of the Origin of Species'. Turns out that Charles T. Darwin was to scientific books what Weird Al Yangevich was to pop music. Easy mistake to make.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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yonker's last reference seems to assert that mere random mutation makes no sense, and living organisms have a built-in propensity to experiment and adapt. quod erat demonstrandum?
of course we must hunt for chemical mechanisms. we gather experts from wide spectrums. rarely can they communicate, but the declaration of the verge of a breakthrough comes right from the boilerplate used by every respectable journal in academia. thinking on the subject is about to be revolutionized. breathtaking. riley can't wait to tell the first nearby female. but not so fast:
At this time in the science of epigenetics, the relevance of heritable epigenetic effects for the ecology and evolution of most organisms is still highly speculative.
well, maybe there's progress here after all. they're using the S-word, right out in front of god and the department chair.
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WBraun
climber
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epigenetics
When you eat certain foods they will turn off the genes that prevent cancer.
This is one reason (although not even the main reason) vegetarian diets is stressed over meat eating.
And ..... while eating the proper foods will turn on genes that fight/prevent cancer.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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You guys seem pretty smart here, so I have a question:
Qt Can being born from a once, twice, thrice-used womb contribute to being gay? Yeah, you read it right: Can being born from a used uterus cause you to be gay?
Ain't that a crazy question?!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Probably more like a different diet encourages a different mix of gut flora which in turn plays a strong role in how the immune system expresses.
The epigenetic effects of butyrate: potential therapeutic implications for clinical practice
Butyrate is a short chain fatty acid derived from the microbial fermentation of dietary fibers in the colon. In the last decade, multiple beneficial effects of butyrate at intestinal and extraintestinal level have been demonstrated. The mechanisms of action of butyrate are different and many of these involve an epigenetic regulation of gene expression through the inhibition of histone deacetylase. There is a growing interest in butyrate because its impact on epigenetic mechanisms will lead to more specific and efficacious therapeutic strategies for the prevention and treatment of different diseases ranging from genetic/metabolic conditions to neurological degenerative disorders. This review is focused on recent data regarding the epigenetic effects of butyrate with potential clinical implications in human medicine.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Yeah, and I suspect Butyrate is just the tip of an commensual / immunological iceberg.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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don't overlook the role of supernovas and the triple alpha process, which produces the element carbon, and which caused fred hoyle to stop being an atheist.
actually, not... as far as I know, Fred was an atheist for life.
Tony, what do you know about the triple-alpha process? other than what you have read others write about it. This is not the first place you've posted it as an example of one of your points. I'm just not sure what that point is...
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cowpoke
climber
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Re: I wonder if the "end of history illusion" (that psychologist Daniel Gilbert has demonstrated) biases our interpretations of data relevant to the question "1. Are humans still evolving?"
Gilbert's empirical focus has been on personal "ends of history," but seems plausible (to me) that it could extend to our perceptions and interpretations of evidence on collective "ends of history."
The latest paper on this phenomena was just published last week in Science.
abstract: "We measured the personalities, values, and preferences of more than 19,000 people who ranged in age from 18 to 68 and asked them to report how much they had changed in the past decade and/or to predict how much they would change in the next decade. Young people, middle-aged people, and older people all believed they had changed a lot in the past but would change relatively little in the future. People, it seems, regard the present as a watershed moment at which they have finally become the person they will be for the rest of their lives. This “end of history illusion” had practical consequences, leading people to overpay for future opportunities to indulge their current preferences."
link to the full paper: http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~dtg/Quoidbach%20et%20al%202013.pdf
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 11, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
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re: interesting topics of evolution
The evolution of the ability of parasites to manipulate their host’s behavior in an adaptive way is one of the most fascinating areas of organismal biology.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4E5vUUtSWT4
In almost no case do we know how they do it.
Is it mind control?
.....
Here's the hypothesis: We sneeze when we have the cold or flu because the virus makes us - it knows the buttons to push. This manipulation of our behavior helps to propagate the virus. Eerie!
Another: We are extra horny when we have an STD. Outrageous, isn't it?!
Damn bugs.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 11, 2013 - 06:01pm PT
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Mermithid worm - ultrasuckage.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 11, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
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triple-alpha seems to be an interesting turn in the road of evolution. i was kinda hoping you'd talk about it a little, ed.
the point i've heard made was that when fred hoyle came to understand its implications, he declared, "the universe is a put-up job," and thereafter seemed to back away from his staunch atheism. of course, i can't begin to appreciate the technical aspects, other than that it's supposedly the way carbon is produced in the fusion reactions of a supernova, and carbon, the key element of life, only happens due to some very fine and improbable balance of forces or events.
for those who don't know fred hoyle, he's the cambridge astronomer "credited" with coining the term "big bang", which he at first said he suggested as a joke, but i think he eventually decided to take credit for it, since it became such a durable idea. he was noted for his atheism, prior to the triple alpha business, and, from what i've heard, a general disdain for biologists. :-)
i guess we have different impressions of hoyle's beliefs, ed. i'll have to go digging to find where i read all this. might have been in one of simon conway-morris's books--he's a cambridger and seems to have likewise taken a step back from atheism in his philosophy of evolution.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 11, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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about Fred's beliefs... he was an iconoclastic personality... it didn't matter what the dogma was, he attacked it. I think that was his point about evolution (and about cosmology, etc...) and an important demonstration that you might come to the point of "disbelief" without some other "belief" to replace it, in other words, you might just say you don't know, which is not the same thing as saying that anything goes.
do you really want to talk about triple-alpha?
it seems to have an over inflated interpretation.
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