Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:42pm PT
|
saw it, I agree.
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
|
Really??????????
That was the speech to justify the third Middle Eastern Quagmire War in a decade????
I think not.
|
|
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
|
Yes, what a wise puppet.
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:02pm PT
|
wow...
nice to see the political theater is working perfectly, keeping y'all occupied and polarized on everything but the real issues, and totally distracted from who really rules this country and the world...
personally, i think the new pope is showing much more leadership than the big O...
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:08pm PT
|
This Syria thing better not mess up the Oh-Man's next set of vacation plans.
Not like we hired him to actually do anything about the home front.
On the other hand - nothing like Miley Cyrus and another lost cause war to distract us from the NSA, IRS, Unemployment, Debt Ceiling, Immigration Reform, Farm Bill...........
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
|
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
|
I like that he took a public stance against the escalating powers of executive vs legislative branches. I'm not sure how the words reconcile with the legal changes in security-related laws that authorize broader presidential powers, whether there will be changes that reign in presidential powers, and whether the public stance is enough to create public pressure that limits the exercise of power by future presidents.
I like that he is drawing a very firm line, showing that without a doubt we are ready to act with force but letting a continuum of diplomacy exist up until that brink to maximize the chance of force not being necessary. Maybe it's not respectful to characterize the relationship between US and Syrian governments in terms of a parent-child relationship, but the actions Obama laid out are very much like what a good parent would do to establish boundaries with an unruly child.
I don't like the circumstantial nature of the evidence linking Assad to the gas attacks, with no attempt to counter the fears that it could be another government or agency that is framing Assad to alter the outcome of the local power struggle (i.e. get US public support to justify US force that weakens Assad and enables other forces to win where they might not have done so without US involvement). All the circumstantial evidence stated against Assad can be explained by other things (e.g. Assad's soldiers need gas masks if they have intel that the rebels will use gas either against Assad or trying to frame Assad; just issuing gas masks is not at all indicative of culpability in a complex conflict).
The fact that Obama specifically said he would respond to concerns he has heard, and did not mention this one which should be the mother of all concerns when deciding whether or not to attack Assad, well it sets off my conspiracy alarm bells. Makes it seem like a ploy to get people sick of war to accept another one. Just by bluntly and directly confronting the concern that it might not be Assad's side directing the use of chemical weapons, and by having more explicit evidence proving Assad's culpability, well that would have dramatically raised my commitment to the cause.
Edit: After Obama stated so clearly what is wrong with chemical weapons (doesn't distinguish between enemy combatant and infants) and that violating this boundary is justification for using force to remove another government's ability to use these weapons, maybe this would be a good time for land mine activists to confront Obama and put pressure for USA to sign treaties that ban all landmine uses:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/03/us-arms-landmines-idUSBRE8B20KR20121203
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty
This is the best my limited googling found about US landmine policy today:
http://www.state.gov/t/pm/wra/c11735.htm
(basically, advocating short-term landmines that would not pose "long-term" threats. Still, during war and immediate aftermath, they don't care weather victim is a solider or a toddler. And corporations that make them get even more money if they expire in short term without use, boosting overall production of landmines, and the potential for "use it or lose it" mentality of expiring mines that need to get used up.
Edit edit: I voted for Obama twice.
|
|
paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:34pm PT
|
how come we didn't care when saddam gassed the kurds, but now its an issue in syria ?
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/08/25/secret_cia_files_prove_america_helped_saddam_as_he_gassed_iran
meanwhile our nation's infrastructure crumbles, we are building prisons instead of schools, and arming the local police with military grade weaponry.
methinks rome's getting ready to fall, and the ruling elite are much more aware of what's about to happen than any of us. see also nsa and the hoard of lies on that one in the past few months...
yeah....proud...this is so f*#king bigger than any one man or party...
but let's keep arguing !! it helps them and hurts us ;-)
|
|
Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
|
|
Sep 10, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
|
It's the End of the World as we know it.
And I feel fine.
Re- Military PoPo
Just found out this weekend that my local PD now owns a tank.
A freekin TANK!
Somehow Barney Fife decided they needed a TANK to do their job.
And somehow our local City Council approved this purchase.
So now we have a TANK - true, it has six wheels instead of tracks and only shoots gas out it's snout - but it's the coolest thing to see them ram down a door to serve a traffic ticket bench warrant!!!!!!!
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 12:02am PT
|
You guys need to learn how to post links without blowing out the page. Super annoying when trying to view on a small screen.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 12:08am PT
|
sully, thanks!
“He fell in October 1918, on a day that was so quiet and still on the whole front, that the army report confined itself to the single sentence: All quiet on the Western Front. He had fallen forward and lay on the earth as though sleeping. Turning him over one saw that he could not have suffered long; his face had an expression of calm, as though almost glad the end had come.”
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 12:30am PT
|
I think Maureen Dowd pretty much nailed it:
Obama cried over the children of Newtown. He is stricken, as he said in his address Tuesday, by “images of children writhing in pain and going still on a cold hospital floor” from “poison gas.” He thought — or thought he thought — that avenging the gassing was the right thing to do. But W., once more haunting his successor’s presidency, drained credibility, coffers and compassion.
While most Americans shudder at the news that 400 children have been killed by a monster, they recoil at the Middle East now; they’ve had it with Shiites vs. Sunnis, with Alawites and all the ancient hatreds. Kerry can bluster that “we’re not waiting for long” for Assad to cough up the weapons, but it will be hard for him to back it up, given that a new NBC/Wall Street Journal poll indicates that Joe Sixpack is now a peacenik; in 2005, 60 percent of Republicans agreed with W. that America should foster democracy in the world; now only 19 percent of Republicans believe it.
W., Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld launched a social engineering scheme to change the mind-set in the Middle East about democracy and the mind-set at home about the post-Vietnam reluctance to be muscular about imposing our values through war. They did manage to drastically change the mind-set in the Middle East and at home, but in the opposite way than they intended.
In a crouch after 9/11, the country was happy to punish an Arab villain, even the wrong one. That mass delusion, plus the economic vertigo, has sent Americans into a permanent crouch. And that’s too bad.
|
|
The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 12:34am PT
|
It's time to take a knee, Barry.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 01:26am PT
|
--removed post because in hindsight political threads are pretty much not about dialogue as much as mud slinging. Sorry I tried.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 01:47am PT
|
For all Obama's talk of Hitler, Assad is not even as bad as Saddam Hussein. Unlike Assad, Hussein gassed his neighbors, as well as his own people.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:08am PT
|
What does Israel have to worry about? Israel has nukes. They'll never lose a war with Syria.
You seem to be making a good case for Bush's war against Iraq.
jghedge + Obama = NeoCon.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 02:13am PT
|
jghedge writes:
"We have nukes too. So why not just eliminate our military?
Someone launches a chemical attack on Manhattan - no problem! We have nukes!"
So if you have a screwdriver, you'll never need a wrench.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
Sep 11, 2013 - 10:47am PT
|
So if Maureen Dowd says it's Bush's fault that we are not taking military action, shouldn't the antiwar factions be praising Bush for a long term legacy of keeping us out of wars?
I mean, if it is Bush's fault...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|