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MarkWestman
Trad climber
Talkeetna, Alaska
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I'm (so far) one of the lucky participants in the criminal enterprise that is our health "insurance" system. Lucky, in that I qualify for the ACA subsidies and can actually afford coverage. Without it, the policy my wife and I have would cost $2,000/month, for a plan with a $5,250 deductible and a $6,500 out of pocket limit (the latter of which I hit every year). That's the cheapest plan available in the state of Alaska.
This may sound like a crummy plan, but considering that I've accrued nearly $440,000 in medical bills for cancer treatment over the past 22 months, and the insurance company isn't allowed to deny any procedures (btw thanks Obama...no really- thanks.), it seems like a steal, and I can manage that out of pocket expense, inconvenient as it might be.
Nonetheless...the fact that so many people (who make slightly more money than I) do not qualify for the subsidies and cannot afford coverage is a travesty, especially in consideration of the outrageous cost of medical treatment for pretty much everything.
I don't pretend to know what the best system might be, but what we have now is not it, and I say this in spite of the fact that I'm benefiting from it. The greater interests of society are not served in any capacity when so many people are unable to afford the care that they need, and when insurance companies serve as a profit-driven middle man to which our congressional leaders (of both parties) are beholden to serving.
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dirtbag
climber
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Right now, the #1 priority should be to flip the legislature and save our republic from president trump and an acquiescent congress. Until that happens, followed by replacement of him as executive, everything else is a pipe dream.
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dirtbag
climber
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Well that’s slightly different from what I’m saying. But I would advocate supporting the most progressive electable candidate in each race. In many areas—such as the south— that would mean supporting a fairly conservative Democrat (e.g. Joe Manchin in West Virginia). Right now, with the rule of law being threatened, I don’t think the party has the luxury of stretching its wings ideologically.
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dirtbag
climber
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Luxury. Pie in the sky. Won’t happen until our government rights itself, at least 3 years from now.
Edit: and I say that wishing we could have policy discussions about healthcare and other important issues. But right now, we simply need to exercise damage control and keep the ship from sinking.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Thank you guys/girls for an enlightening and (mostly) civil discussion. Quite a few interesting facts were discussed and quite a few good ideas were proposed.
Unfortunately many of you have distorted perception of Canadian Health Care system.
So I take liberty to clarify some misconception.
Jody:
Canadian teaching institutions do not produce enough physicians to meet demands … At least in Ontario College of Surgeons and Physicians (it’s a doctors’ trade union) has a major say in how many new doctors are required. They do not want to overproduce doctors to have a guaranteed pay. As soon as a certain percent of freshly minted doctors “unexpectedly” emigrates to greener pastures down there we have doctors’ shortage.
OK, this case need some details.
This did happen in Quebec.
In this particular case overworked doctors asked to hire more doctors by their hospital (to decrease their workload) instead of a nominal pay increase.
Norton:
single payer Medicare has overhead costs of about 2%,
private plans keep as much as 50% to pay out in profits Actually in Canada “Administrative cost” is 6% while in the US it’s 19%.
Recently I read an article on health care and these numbers are still fresh in my memory (I apologize I do not remember the source).
It means that US health care system can’t be fixed by only eliminating private insurance companies.
A problem of obscene hospital prices should be also addressed.
I still remember from my BCBS training, that doctors’ offices are responsible for largest portion of fraud (the same as in Canada).
Ken M:
most Canadians who are immensely proud of their health care system. Yes, propaganda departments are very good up here.
As a result many young Canadians believe that we have a superior Health Care system.
At the same time people of my age (who acquired some real life experience with this system) are envious of what you have down there.
~kief~:
>>>>health care in the US has become a world wide laughing stock.
remember michael moores sicko? Sicko is just propaganda by clueless (?) Michael Moore.
More than 50% of US population have access to Health Care that is envy to an average Canadian with real health issues.
Reilly:
Plus, pardon the thread drift, we both know the absurdity of the coding system. Such coding system is used in all single payer countries, including Canada.
I am not familiar with another effective way to fight price gauging.
Reilly:
Somebody said something in praise of the VA. I thank my stars I've not seen
the inside of one since the 70's, period. Not a pretty sight. They've got
to be better these days as they couldn't be worse. You need to pay more attention to VA.
Among all US healthcare programs, VA probably is the most similar to what we have in Canada.
Yes, similar to VA, healthcare in Canada is not getting better.
You can extrapolate current VA state to 10 to 20 years into the future to understand what you should expect from coming US single payer system.
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Moosedrool:
But, I agree that the high cost of medical insurance is mostly caused by overpriced health services and medications. One more cause is unnecessary tests and procedures.
On a healthcare forum I started reading a few years ago:
- typical American concern is about unneeded tests and procedures,
- typical Canadian concern is about waiting time and ability to get access to some new expensive procedures, that were not either approved or fully rolled out in Canada.
You can't have all three:
- good
- fast
- cheap
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Ugh. This conversation freaks me out. Thanks for the info, Yuri. I've heard stories of horrific wait times at the VA, and if Canada is similar, that's not a path we want to go down. Now, my wife is on Medicare with a supplemental program, which is quite affordable. We take care of ourselves and have been lucky, which matters. "Medicare for all" would be okay if we could afford it--but that seems like a stretch. It reimburses below cost so doctors/hospitals have to make up the difference somewhere else. Since our legislators are all sniveling cowards re. federal deficit/debt, don't expect any healthcare miracles soon.
For your reading pleasure:
https://americaoffbalance.org/
We have some extraordinarily serious and painful work to do re. spending. I see almost no one with the courage to take it on.
BAd
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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My brother-in-law in Canada has been going through a Dante’s Inferno of procrastination and outright incompetence for 6 months with no end in sight. A dog gets treated faster and better in the US, if he can afford it. Further complicating my bro-in-law’s probs is a bureaucratic nightmare engendered by Transport Canada and his employer, a certain large Canadian airline. Every move is a Catch-22. Unbelievable.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Bad, although I've heard it said that Medicare reimbursement is less than cost, it assuredly is not the case. I know a variety of doctors who essentially make all of their income from Medicare (Geriatrics, for example), and they do quite well.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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On a healthcare forum I started reading a few years ago:
 typical American concern is about unneeded tests and procedures,
typical Canadian concern is about waiting time and ability to get access to some new expensive procedures, that were not either approved or fully rolled out in Canada.
It's not like the US doesn't have waiting times. A personal anecdote that is probably typical:
I went to my doctor with back pains. (Getting into my doctor only took 2 days.) Based on my description, the doctor thought there was a small chance it was a super serious condition that might need surgery like yesterday. Getting an appointment with the specialist, for a possible emergency situation took 6 weeks (which was about 6 weeks faster than a 'normal' appointment). He saw me and ordered some tests. Getting the test done took 3 weeks. Seeing the specialists after getting the test took another 4 weeks or so.
So for this 'rush' scenario, it took 13 weeks to see the specialists with test results in hand. I'm sure there are places in the world that might have taken longer, but when people say that other countries have waiting times, I roll my eyes...
And it isn't like US health insurance automatically pays for every new procedure/medicine. Again, it may be quicker than some places, but there are lots of fights and sick people waiting around for approvals from insurance companies.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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True dat, August.
Bad
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Dirtbag,how long are you and the pantsuit Democrats going to keep saying that ,really?
Yeah ,we will wait.
Maybe after the next trillion(look up trillion some time) dollar endless war.
Or ,maybe after the next trillion dollar tax cut to ,you guessed it,the richest people in our country.
Pie in the sky ,for sure.
And Reilly for every Canadien you know with problems with their HC,I know at least 50 with no problems at all. You are FOS.
Not sorry.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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In America’s health care insurance system the people that have good genetics or take care of themselves end up paying more to cover the people in the high risk sector . These healthier people are charged more to help cushion private health insurers losses . This is a form of socialism that benefits corporations . Venezuela !
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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HaHaHa, BeerBoy. Look, moron, everyone in my family is either a nurse, nurse practioner, doctor, or pilot. I got the flyboy side covered and I take the word of those on the med side. Yer punching way above yer weight class. And regardless of the ineptitude the foot dragging is indisputable. He lives in Ontario but he is based in British Columbia. He has docs in both provinces but they act like he is a furriner - they absolutely refuse to cooperate. And the insanity of the Transport Canada bureaucracy defies belief, not that I’m deluded enough to expect you to either believe it or understand it.
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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Oh sh#t, Wilbeer
He’s going to call vinnie as soon as he’s done ordering a new car right from the factory and enjoying a glass of the finest Cabernet with his broker.
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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Another 27 bucks sent to Bernie just now in honor of your delusional pompous nonsense.
Can't you just ride out your last bit of time without actively f*#king those of us and our loved ones that have a bunch of time left to survive while we clean up the mess you've made of just about everything.
I know you're in a tough spot with the wife but you don't get a break for this jackassery.
So you've got a questionable anecdote that "proves" the narrowminded talking points that you've fallen for hook, line, and sinker?
Pound sand.
Thanks to everyone who's able to look at this issue beyond the damn dollars in the stock market and see the humans.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Yesir^^^^
My good friend,Alex Riley,bought a new V 60 Crossover,he was driving it home from the dealer,Best Motors,when the drivers side back wheel fell off and he barely averted going in the ditch. Loose lug nuts on new aluminum wheels.That never happens.
Volvo’s Suck.
One has to have higher than a 9th grade education to see what I did there.
Yeah, I am lowly and below your pay grade,for sure.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Okay, Canadians, where can we get the straight scoop on what it's like to get healthcare in the Frozen North? I'm a huge fan of your chilly country and would love to know how bad or good you have it. We're getting a lot of contradictory reporting here!
BAd
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Our healthcare in Canada is like your firemen in the USA.
When you have a housefire- the firemen (which you American socialists publicly fund) come and put the fire out.
NEXT
you use your house insurance/cash to rebuild the house.
In Canada, we have healthcare to put out our fires.
NEXT, we use cash/private medical insurance to 'rebuild the house'. We can choose from clinics/hospitals in Canada
USA or Venezuela to do so.
It is equivalent to a safety net.
In the US you are missing the safety net - and effective tax rate for me as a dentist in both countries was the same.
And now your government is trying to get you to use private, parasitic, for-profit companies with CEO middlemen who make 12MM Christmas bonuses to say that they have public healthcare as a country. It seems to be the dumbest thing to me. This isn't the hospitals, teaching facilities or research facilities (all different entities and not a result of your healthcare system). It is a middle layer that parasitically sucks up money and I cannot see how you could make it work without incurring a much larger cost per person than our system that doesn't have that middle layer.
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Treezypoof
Trad climber
Cyberia
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We can burn the whole thing down and make something better than exists anywhere.
We're coming for the CEOs.
The actual costs of a 2 hour outpatient surgery is not 30 grand.
It's going to take bravery and new thinking.
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