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P.Rob
Social climber
Pacomia, Ca - Y Que?
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P.Rob, no doubt you have failed to consider the obvious:
Without a deity to which can confess our sins, attribute our failings and from which we can seek absolution we atheists are completely accountable for our actions. We have no invisible bogey man we can blame if things don't go right, but must face reality as it exists right here and now.
You christians pass the buck at the drop of a hat. You rely on a manufactured morality that leaves you unaccountable for your actions. You have no strength of character but rely on blind faith. Religion the world over has been used as a crutch and an excuse and driven people to act in the most disgusting and depraved ways because people could claim their actions were sanctioned by a god.
Khanom,
I do not recognize the Christianity of your description. My world view is the antithesis of your description. I am called to operate as humble and contrite. I have relational stance based upon imputation, expiation and PROPITIATION to God. I am fully accountable for my actions and their consequences. I cannot blame anyone or anything. Furthermore I mandated to respect all, esteem others greater than myself. I am told that our time here is fleeting, so make the most of it and live in the immediate. I am called to love my neighbor, the poor and the widowed. The sick and the down trodden. I am to fight against unrighteousness and injustice. God is more interested in my character than my comfort
Isaiah 58:7-10
New International Version (NIV)
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8 Then your light will break forth like the dawn,
and your healing will quickly appear;
then your righteousness[a] will go before you,
and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9 Then you will call, and the Lord will answer;
you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I.
“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10 and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oh no. If people are going to start posting inane scripture references on this thread (they're ALL inane), I may have to move to the other thread.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Yes... but Christians aren't the only individals confusing effect for cause, and projecting human ego and subjectivity on to other things,
How close Hitler's statement:
"Historically speaking, the Christian religion is nothing but a Jewish sect.... After the destruction of Judaism, the extinction of Christian slave morals must follow logically... . I shall know the moment when to confront, for the sake of the German people and the world, their Asiatic slave morals with our picture of the free man, the godlike man.... It is not merely a question of Christianity and Judaism. We are fighting against the most ancient curse that humanity has brought upon itself. We are fighting against the perversion of our soundest instincts. Ah, the God of the deserts, that crazed, stupid, vengeful Asiatic despot with his powers to make laws! ... That poison with which both Jews and Christians have spoiled and soiled the free, wonderful instincts of man and lowered them to the level of doglike fright."
resembles Nietche's manuscripts.
Can we suggest that Hitler appropriated Nietzsche's ideas and-reconciled them into his own heroic romanticism of power?
...even haunting the Nietzsche museum in Weimar and posing for photographs of himself staring in rapture at the bust of the great man.
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WBraun
climber
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The atheist argument is monkeys striking typewriters can produce English words.
Pretty normal considering how the atheist "thinks" his father is a Monkey.
And we haven't seen God therefor there's no God.
Duh.
And then the best one yet,
Direct observation and empirical evidence are powerful tools but they gain their power from creative thinking and speculation.
That's just plain Jane guessing masqueraded as "Science"
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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COOL K,
Ive always been the one to ask big questions. U obliviously believe in time. With ur description of the universe( expanding, contracting, accelerating). So time must start then stop. Right?
So, what (who) caused it to start? I know U can't answer, but just think about the idea of the question. And another one I have is "scientific research" has said the Sun is burning out. It's not getting bigger. It's getting smaller. And less than 250k years ago it was so potent nothing could live here! I think some people take to heart some scientific notions and discard others.
So who started plant life, and animal life, and human life? And who the heck invented the eyeball? Genius !
Jus wuderun
BB
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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So blublock, saying your imaginary friend was always there, is a logical counter argument? A step up in debate? Anything different from saying, "I don't know, either?"
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crasic
climber
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Any self-consistent axiomatic system is as valid as the next.
So, what (who) caused it to start
It never started, it simply didn't exist along with our concept of the universe. Its meaningless to talk about something that didn't exist to have started. How can you talk about yourself before you were conceived?
Something can come from nothing quite readily, as long as the total energy is zero (which, for our universe, as far as we can tell, it is).
Its a confusing concept, but only because geometry of 4-dimensional manifolds isn't very intuitive (well, it is, but you need to have learned just a little differential geometry and topology).
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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And yet we see evidence of this on the Taco every day... the monkeys are sending.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Hey, its cool to be a atheist. Just one thing you might want to think about so that you can respond when the time comes. When you stand in front of your creator, and he asks you why you denied his existence and his incredible vast creation, probably not a good time to be without a answer.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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I'd have an answer to your imaginary event.
"I used the brain you gave me and logical reasoning allowed me to arrive at the conclusion that you simply are an illusion and one made up by the weak-minded."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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"Hey, its cool to be a atheist. Just one thing you might want to think about so that you can respond when the time comes. When you stand in front of your creator, and he asks you why you denied his existence and his incredible vast creation, probably not a good time to be without a answer." (-Studley)
Hey, it's cool to be a theist. (In any of the world's dozen major or minor theologies: Abrahamic to Yanomamo to Zoroastrian.) Just one thing you might want to think about so that you can respond when the time comes. When you stand in front of any educated demographic in the 21st century and they ask you why you are so dense before so many founts of knowledge of modernity, probably not a good time to be without a answer.
Lest you be labeled a scientifically illiterate rube.
P.S.
Unless you're ol' time (over 75 years old, say), then you might get a free pass.
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jstan
climber
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Almost any interaction between humans is a political interaction. In political interactions one is interested foremost in creating results based upon agreement good for all ( hopefully). Not in being right. As Sam Harris points out it makes little political sense needlessly to turn off a thousand people just in order to point out that ten people have got something wrong. The youtube for that address is here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KG5s_-Khvg
You may want to skip the four minute introduction. I watched the introduction once and it is a little off topic.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Cool, that you would link to this particular Sam Harris lecture - as it's one of my favorites. It's in this piece where he tries to challenge the "atheists" to think anew and beyond their current identity.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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When you stand in front of your creator, and he asks you why you denied his existence and his incredible vast creation, probably not a good time to be without a answer.
.
you denied ... his incredible vast creation Assuming your Creator (shouldn't it be capitalized?) does exist, and assuming He/She's compassionate (why CAN'T He be a She, or even an Hermaphrodite?), I'm not worried. I've led my life well by any Christian/Judaic/Muslim/Hindu standard (well, maybe I've eaten too much pork and beef, I'm certainly not Kosher and I don't pray to Allah 3 times a day).
I've honored, respected and taken the best care I could of His creation since I was a child. I don't need to believe in Him/Her/It in order to have the greatest wonder and affection for the Universe (or even all of them) and all it contains.
I'll tell Him I made an honest, reasoned mistake and have never (or at least seldom) blasphemed and He/She/It will let me in.
If not, then I'm not really interested and I'll be happier in Hell...as long as I don't run into George W Bush and Dick Cheney. (oops.....is that blasphemous?)
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WBraun
climber
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"There is zero evidence for a phenomenon and yet a perfectly good cultural explanation for why people think a god exists."
The atheist can't find God because he's always offending him.
Thus God never reveals himself to such rascals.
Thus the atheist remains in the darkest region of consciousness ......
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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The atheist can't find God because he's always offending him. Please tell me how I've offended your God.
Is He/She/It such a wimp that He can't tolerate dissent? Is It so jealous and insecure that my disbelief damns me?
Assuming HeSheIt exists, my behavior toward It's creations should be all It gives a damn about (oops....another blasphemy)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Werner, are you saying that god gets snitty because people offend him/her/it/they?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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There is no god and WBraun is his prophet.
In my view WBraun himself is one of the offences to this no-god who is revealing himself every day in the material world, though the words of WB are nothing but falling leaves having no influence on this no-god who is older than any universe.
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WBraun
climber
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"You can't see my god because you don't have faith".
I never said said anything like this ever.
You guys are the ones making up tons of sh!t and framing it as what someone is saying and you guys are totally projecting.
There is no "My" and "Your" God.
There is only God almighty himself.
Atheists are not very intelligent.
They only rubber stamp themselves as "I'm a scientist" and then claim themselves as the only ones with real intelligence .......
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