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steve shea
climber
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Aug 25, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
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Good point JL and interesting project. To revisit my upthread Jazzercise comment, I to do not mean to disrespect sport climbing. But I quit as a trad climber for a long time and now getting off the couch and back into the sport. Sport climing has been a fun worry free means to get in shape and move on rock again. However from that perspective, trad climbing is much more satisfying and from my background just part of the sport. Sport climbing feels like I'm kind of climbing. To your original observation/question I'm guessing around 5.9/5.10 might be the mean given all techniques. Cams sure lessen the stress of placing pro so I that moves things up I think.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 26, 2012 - 12:57am PT
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If you're including a Gunks route, at least make it Fat City Direct, which has much more climbing on it. But I think I'd nominate Erect Direction for an iconic but not ridiculous 5.10 from the Gunks.
Although not many people know much about it, one of the traddest cliffs in the U.S. right now is Millbrook. No bolts anywhere, maybe at most a handful of fixed pins for more than a hundred routes, rarely any chalk to show the way because many Gunks climbers are afraid to go there (with good reason), protection sometimes sparse, steep and very demanding rock with sections that aren't perfectly solid, virtually all routes done ground up without previewing or cleaning, rappel approach. If you can onsight, say, five 5.10 routes there, then I'd say you're at least a real 5.10 steep face climber.
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 26, 2012 - 02:27am PT
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Great thread John.
I second Roadie's (Steve's) line of thought. Climbing "true" at a grade, in my opinion, should include the ability to keep that grade up over some distance.....
It really depends on your measuring stick, but my measuring stick is longer routes, somewhat in the mountains if possible. Climbing The Regular Route on Fairview was kind of a big deal for me because of the length of time required to keep climbing efficiently, with an element of committment, as the route/day wears on.
Climbing Grant's Crack at Swan Slab (50 feet) never made me feel like I was a "5.9" climber.
For some reason I don't feel ready for Serenity to Sons though I can often climb a pitch of 5.10 if I need to. I'm always more impressed when someone sends something in the .10b-d range on The Hulk than if they Come back from a day at the sport crag saying they climbed "all the 5.11a's".
The dudes who keep moving all day and keep their salt together on long routes, stacking the pitches up in a particular grade range, get my vote for being "true" 5._ climbers.
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Aug 27, 2012 - 04:32pm PT
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In the 1970's an old friend overheard some kid in the cafeteria across from Camp 4 spouting about how "he didn't consider anyone a climber unless they could lead 5.10d," leading my friend to think that kid had probably done his first 5.10d earlier that day (and of course not knowing which and what type of climbing it was, etc.) We had to laugh, because we figured this likely would have ruled out every legendary mountain master even up to Comici himself. This wasn't you, was it, Marty?
There is a hidden aspect to John's original question, that clarifies a bit how we might think about the answer - that is, try finding someone who is master of all things 5.11, BUT NOTHING HARDER. It's probably safe to assume that Alex Honnold, maybe Peter Croft 10 years ago, could have done virtually any 5.11 - because we consider them 5.12+ climbers!
There are rarer things than the true 5.11 trad leader - the true 5.12 trad leader, the true 5.13 trad leader, the true 5.14 trad leader, etc.
I have come to see every climber's skill set is more like a fingerprint - no two quite the same. Sometimes they are even quite paradoxical, for example the ability to do harder single moves on run-out lead, than the person can typically do bouldering. Also, the vast range of rock types and characteristics worldwide have demonstrated that for every "master" (ref. Henry Barber in the '70's) there is going to be an obscure local at some provincial crag who has created routes that will shame him (Pete Cleveland w/ Devil's Lake, Bernt Arnold in Dresden, and on and on).
Add in the objective factors, and there is a huge difference between clean, solid, dry, well-protected pitches on a familiar local crag, and 20 pitches up the back side of the Grand with snow starting to blow in, at dusk with a pack, the wrong size gear left on your rack and a runout with no clear sight of a belay. It may be a lot more appropriate to ask a stranger, before roping up, "How many partners have died on climbs with you?"
Also, if the implication is one must free on-sight every route, this means never falling, so they may as well free solo on-sight everything up to that point - unfortunately, this logical conclusion put Paul Preuss and other purist, free-soloing legends into terminal trouble 100 years ago. Glenn Randall, who survives to this day in Boulder, largely by having retired from climbing, used a Preuss technique in his solos, whereby one should never ascend anything harder than one can safely descend; Glenn would reverse every difficult sequence, immediately after surmounting it, before continuing upward, so as to assure himself that if some obstacle arose later, he had already proven that he could downclimb and reverse the entire route if necessary!
On the more serious side, a couple fatal leader falls in Eldorado Canyon in the past 5 years occurred on old-school 5.9s, when the leader's gear pulled; the papers variously described the climbers as being solid 5.10 climbers on indoor gym walls.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Aug 27, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
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Well, that's Eldo for you. Fishing in wires on face climbs, and the rock is polished everywhere. AH that was very insightful your comment about where have all the 5.11 climbers gone - they are 5.12 and 5.13 climbers who are well rounded to various degrees but probably get their highest numbers on overhanging sport routes in places like Rifle. 30 degrees overhanging but mostly good holds. A lot of people get good at that but no one practices 5.11 chimneys. No one I know anyway.
Other factors to consider: not everyone wants to climb long routes in Yosemite or in the mtns. Crack climbing is not learned in gyms to people have to start all over with it, on 5.8s and 5.9's, and they're just not into it. I don't like chimneys and offwidths and would never do them unless they're part of long routes. Particularly offwidths, I'd just as soon always avoid them, as get good at them.
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Degaine
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 03:03am PT
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You guys keep speculating.
The reason we don't hear about the well-rounded 5.11 climber is because 5.11 does not interest the climbing/mountain media anymore unless it's a new route in some far away, remote corner of the planet.
Back when 5.11 was the hardest/highest rating attributed to climbs, the media talked a lot about it (and some of you were the climbers being talked about) thus your impression that there were "more" back then than there are now.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 28, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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If you want to climb mid 12 and up, it's pretty much a wonder of nature if you find a decent trad climb this hard. There are plenty, but really there aren't compared to bolted routes. There is an upper limit where the gear becomes rediculous, the cracks too small and unpleasant, the line contrived, etc. Search MP.com's database and watch the trad climbs all but disappear by about 13b - especially the 4 star ones, which they need to be if someone is going to want to spend the time making it go.
The "average" state of trad climbing has definitely risen, IMO. Obviously, there are the gyms. I would also credit the availably of information about routes - tons of videos, pictures and descriptions of every detail of so many harder lines is out there. This really closes the mental gap and gets more people on to these routes.
I don't think anyone with the experience for the upper grades really cares anymore about being "solid at 11" or "solid at 12" - that's noob talk. It more like "this level of climb in X number of goes". The steps get finer and take more time to work through.
Some current modern benchmark climbs, IMO, would include:
Front Range:
Wasp
Evictor
Freeline
Musta Been High
China Doll
Halucinogen
Sandstone:
Rainbow Wall
Ruby's
Optimator
Moonlight
Sierra:
Equinox
Phantom
Pheonix
El Cap - anything
etc.
All of these have seen numerous free sends over the past few years. These aren't oddball freakishly hard climbs done by an elite few. They are all seeing quite a bit of freeclimbing activity.
That said, the majority of this thread seems to be hung up on how cool it is to lead 5.10 or 5.11 or whatever standard from the long ago past, and how doing that "solid" or "onsight" in all styles is just as good and requires just as much work and talent as projecting and sending the harder grades. I think this is a fantasy held to protect the ego.
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
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I wish I could magically poof JLP to the crux of Air Voyage in The Black without a rope. Its pretty easy, only .12-, ow, four stars for sure. I bet he could just stuff his ego into the roof and glide right through…
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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^^^^ Wa HAhahahahA!
Hell just without a ropegun would do.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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The OP is dead-on accurate.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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I don't think anyone with the experience for the upper grades really cares anymore about being "solid at 11" or "solid at 12" - that's noob talk. It more like "this level of climb in X number of goes".
jlp, you fail to consider that there's quite a long list of people who care very much about exactly this because they are putting up climbs like Cat's Ear Spire, routes in Patagonia, etc., etc.
Also, you might consider refreshing your understanding of what an "average" is. No one is saying that there are not dozens of bad asses out there capable of flashing every 11 or 12 in Yosemite.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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....yeah, solo naked while it's raining with a pitbull knawing at my balls.
I just love hearing these retro trad BS "oh yeah, well what about.." comebacks.
FWIW, I think the Air Voyage OW is easier than the Monster. It's wider and has more rests.
t-man - you just failed to say anything what-so-ever beyond the elementary.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Aug 28, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
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5.11 is still hard but obviously not as hard as JLP's clitoris for this thread.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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Anyone have a tissue? Maybe a handiwipe?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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If you measure this all against the total climbing demographic then the number of 'bad asses' as a percentage of the total demographic has likely plummeted precipitously over the past thirty years.
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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i think i got some spray in my eye
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 28, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
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If you measure this all against the total climbing demographic then the number of 'bad asses' as a percentage of the total demographic has likely plummeted precipitously over the past thirty years.
You're probably right, though I suspect the plummeting started 10 or 20 years before that. I'm not sure it really addresses JL's issue, though. I understood his point to be the rarity of climbers who can climb at a given standard for all the varied types of climbing, not the ratio of "bad asses" to duffers.
John
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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Something is missing here. Why does anyone want to talk about this?
If you are climbing just for the fun of it - you don't care what anyone thinks.
If you care whether someone is considered a bad ass, then you are busy caring about what people think. Why? The usual answer is money. Does someone get money? Does not have to be yourself.
How many old time professional climbers are well off? A few did very well. But not for their climbing. They had substantial other talent. Most old time professional climbers are still trying to work. Look at the data.
The audience, and therefore the money, is presently in free soloing. Roped climbing of 5.13 or higher is quite probably not going to pay your medical bills even after qualifying for medicare. The whole area is a back water.
Unless you do it just for the fun of it.
Seems to me.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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Nice one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 28, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
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You're probably right, though I suspect the plummeting started 10 or 20 years before that.
Nah, the plummeting started with the advent of sport climbing. Before that if you couldn't lead on gear your career in climbing was pretty brief and you found other things to do - it kept the demographic pretty tightly constrained (most today would claim 'artificially' so).
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