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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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Why couldn't they have cut some rope off the end of their rope to make prusiks? Were they rapping with 50m ropes as well? As that would be criminal.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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I carry prussiks even in the Gunks... lol
I can't imagine staring down 3000+ feet of unknown stone with no ascenders. Hilarious.
Although I hardly think it's "criminal".
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
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70m rope - quantity 2
ATC - 1
Biners - 20
Camera - 1
Cell phone - 1
Power bars - 6
Water - 2 quarts
1 copy of the Supertopo Noobs Guide to Rappelling El Capitan
YOSAR phone number
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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Just saw this thread. Ho man what an interesting turn of events.
This all could have been avoided if the guy on top of the problem rappel followed the sage advice from the movie Vertical Limit. "you did the right thing to cut the rope, any good climber would have".
I agree I think it's best the OP doesn't comment here much until the court case is finished. But then I REALLY hope he comes and gives the Trip Report.
As mentioned folks who post and admit mistakes get points for being able to do it. Of course he'll be flamed but that didn't stop him before did it?
It sounds like no one got hurt. Not too big a deal, chalk this one up as a learning experience. I'm sure it will be a great, once in a lifetime, story once a little time has passed and he can see the humor in it. Rappeling the nose with little experience and no way to get back up the rope? That's classic!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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+
ATC - 2 (in case of a fumble)
Ascenders and aiders - 2 ea.
Rain/wind shell.
Brain bucket.
PAS.
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
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Well as a conciliation prize the stuck rappeler got to go down the whole way courtesy of the yosar 3000' lowering line.
Not in the best style,granted, but, mission accomplished.
So where's the TR?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:25pm PT
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This is interesting. A bunch of people who regularly participate in an "extreme" sport, some of whom have either self rescued themselves because they made mistakes and some who might have even been rescued by others, are all condemning some guys who participated in an "extreme" sport where they needed a rescue because of their mistakes.
It seems perfectly reasonable to have a law that says that a person must pay for their negligence.
But is climbing itself negligent? What about big wall climbing? People are rescued off the nose quite often. Statistically, climbing the nose may be negligent just because it's climbing the nose and if people who are qualified do it, they will still need a rescue some percentage of the time. Or does needing a rescue immediately place one in the category of unqualified?
One guy here draws the line at "moron" which is the most juvenile thing a person can do. Name calling is so amazingly counter-productive that it makes him look like, I hate to say it, a moron.
Someone else just shrugs it off as the price of freedom. Let people try things if they want no matter the cost.
The question that should be discussed is where the line should be drawn. Not this one situation but how the line that was crossed can be set in stone so that anyone who wants to go rap El Cap can read the law regarding negligence and measure themselves against it.
This seems impossible. People will make mistakes. We will read about it and call them names. Nothing will change. At least they had the same spirit of adventure that is respected in the climbing community even if they lacked everything else needed to complete their task successfully.
Dave
P.S. SAR did not HAVE to go get them. If the SAR people all quit and no one else took the job and the rangers adopted a policy of letting people die, they would have died. People made the choice now and a long time ago to go rescue them at their own risk. It was their choice to join up. If you can't handle the idea of rescuing someone who made a terrible mistake because you think that they are a moron, please quit. No one wants a rescuer who hates the person they are rescuing any more than they want a doctor that doesn't like patients.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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rappelling is not climbing. It is an inherently dangerous activity...
Climbing is also an inherently dangerous activity.
Cavers rap all of the time. It is the essence of their sport. To them, climbing in way dangerous and rappelling is probably predictable and controllable.
And car racers probably think that cavers and climbers are both nuts.
We are all nuts that take risks that others think are pointless and stupid. There is no argument in saying that rappelling is someone more dangerous. Lots of things are more dangerous and the level of danger that you perceive is set by your viewpoint, not by the actual real danger involved.
Dave
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
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I think the problem most people are having isn't the act of rappelling itself or the rescue but their apparent lack of respect for the rock and their apparent lack of preparedness.
What they did was no different then the three that jumped the railing at the top of the vernal last year and got swept away. Except those three were less lucky. Both were moronic acts when considering their apparent lack of consideration of risk and preparedness to handle a common, predictable situation.
As you pointed out, climbing and rappelling has countless inherent dangers that will get even the most experienced climber stuck or killed. We made a decision long ago to help rescue those who risk their lives climbing when these dangers rear their head. However, there is little room for adding MORE danger by being negligent or stupid.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
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Not me Riley, I have NEVER done ANYTHING stupid. Ever. Nope not even once. Lol
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crasic
climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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It's just that most folks first first rappel epic is two pitches up a 5.9 ...LOL
Indeed, and didn't require a YOSAR call out.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Aug 14, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
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1) maybe these guys should have climbed the Nose first to familiarize themselves with the rap stations.
2) why didn't they rap the NWRR on Half Dome?
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Aug 14, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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When I first started climbing, my buddy and I would drive up to the Robbin's shop in Fresno for gear and advice. We had no idea what we were doing of course and a couple guys working at the shop seemed to sneer at us a little, so we avoided them. Doug Weins was always incredibly patient with us and would give us bits of advice and suggestions for us to experiment with. We kept returning for his advice and suggestions and would pretty much do our best to follow his instructions. Now Doug was a frequent partner of Rowell and Gillette and did a lot of bad ass adventures, but we knew nothing of that till we got to watch various slide shows. We trusted his advice because he did not overreact or demean us. He listened to our screwball ideas and helped us learn better.
In 1984, I read a story by Jim Cassidy about rafting the Kings River from Yucca Point to Garnet Dike, at that time an impressive feat. The Kings was my home river but I knew nothing about that section, except that I wanted to do it. I had just gotten off the Grand Canyon and so was feeling pretty solid. I call Jim up at his shop and ask for advice. He could have been insulted that the first time we talk I brazenly suggest I will kayak the most difficult whitewater he has ever done. But, being Jim, he just asks me what I have already paddled that might be comparable. What is the hardest stuff I have done. I tell him and he thinks about it for a few moments. "Well," he says, "You should try paddling Cherry Creek or the Forks of the Kern first. See how that goes. If they seem easy then you are ready for the upper Kings." He tells me "No, don't do it," but gives me good suggestions of what I should do that might lead towards my goal. So I had Jim to thank a couple weeks later when I paddled Cherry Creek and got spanked pretty good. Class 5 was whole new world that I was clueless about. But with that first advice, I started learning.
When people ask me for advice, I try to emulate Doug and Jim.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
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The guys r hosers.
That being said, I have some tales of risk and luck that I'll save for impressing the chicks.
Guys shouldn't be charged for the rescue. Tax dollars at work (I pay plenty). Better use of funds than the super train to nowhere.
Glad u survived, now take an oath to NOT reproduce.... EVER! ;)
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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I liken Rappelling to presidential politics...a choice between the lesser of two evils.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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First he should have tried this first.
People were correct by saying or suggested/advised try something less or more practical first before choosing the real nose [El Cap] and again practice, practice and additional understanding of what is involved in rapping [not the singing]. Werner is correct “All it takes is a good brain. Do you have one?”
These guys obvious did not. No jugs? Well that is a good clue these guys did not have brains. Correct rope lengths and not all fixed rappel anchors are the same length. On the nose, one has to know which ones to be on the correct route after being next to the Great Roof then proceeding through the grey bands finally ending up at Dolt Tower; from there it is straight and a breeze.
People say or are upset that they were or called morons. I would take morons and use the word idiots. Just like going into a whorehouse: if you never have been in one, then don’t go in.
A fine, yes but not a spank on the hand; consider what if for some reason and not human err either with the chopper or the rescue team and nature wind/heat, falling rock, decides to change the course of this event to harming or killing crew members and damaging the aircraft how much would that cost be. What about the cost to the killed crew members and suffering to their wives and family. Aircraft can be replaced no biggie: what $750k?
Happens all the time with or on an extraction team getting your main target out of the situation, it could be a business man or somebody of interest that has been snatched. [not the kind in the whorehouse] If you have a good team with an addition distraction team using plan [A] plan and a few other back up systems in place by using the brain/experience all team members come back [then again unforeseen things could change that to disaster as well] but if you lack the skills or are disorganized no one comes back. Hundreds of them and happens every day just never reported for good reasons.
Take the example of the pirating off the Gulf and Southeast Asia. Some companies pay the ransom better off than creating more chaos that is why all our goods imported are higher.
Now if the guys that went down had an insurance plan with a climbing clause saying it will pay for said rescue then hey! let the party begin.
Edit: for some reason that last part went to bold, I did not make it bbbbb bold. ????
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 14, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
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Ironically, this thread is making me want to rap the nose!
But I also remember the last time I was at the top of the Nose and remembered how much I wouldn't have relished even rapping that last pitch.
Plus I'm not the type that enjoys carrying gear up there.
Just funny that It sounds fun now
Peace
Karl
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rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
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Aug 14, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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"Exhibit A for the defense in this case would be this thread. Viewed in its entirety, the conversation could be interpreted as goading the OP into undertaking the "adventure". I enjoy Werners blunt commentary, but I suspect he will temper his future comments. Supertopo bears some responsibility."
Did I read that correctly ??????????
"Supertopo bears some responsibility."
"Yes your honor, I checked on the Taco and they said go for it so we did"
CMac better put up a disclaimer "stuff on the internet might not be true".
That should cover it.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Rwedgee.
Maybe you should reread the thread. I did this morning and didn't find one example of someone suggesting that Chris rap the nose. 2 people gave advice on the anchors but most said don'tdo it.
Prod.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 14, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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Surfacially, it appears as though they entered this venture ill-prepared and under-trained, based on our assumptions, which may or may not be true.
Chris - we really need to hear from you, buddy...
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