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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Sep 18, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
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[quote]The average was probably more like 28.33538 inches. Pelut got as much as 3-feet between holes at times (rarely, even 4). And it's probably not 900 feet either. Probably more like 700, taking the top two pitches and the odd natural sections into account. That revised combination of numbers knocks literally hundreds of holes off of the estimate. [/quote
madbolter1, that's a very polite response to last night's whiskey-fueled rant. Thanks.
Using your revised estimate, with 700 feet of drilled placements times 30 inches per, there are about 280 drilled placements. That's a staggering number.
To which you added one-third more, say, 90? For a grand total of 370 drilled placements winding their way up the side of the Titan.
It's not clear whether you repeated their route, failed on their route, created your own route. Perhaps all three. It's a mess. If your allegations about the first ascent methods are true, the Catalonians created a mediocre, badly done, bolt-ladder aid route then brazenly lied about what they did. Or, at best, are utterly clueless about aid climbing. Grim accusations, but seemingly supported by the photos you've posted and review of the video they produced.
Placing up to 90 new bolts on a second ascent in the Fisher Towers is also unprecedented; appalling on the face of it. But maybe to be upset at this is to blame the messenger. I dunno.
At this point, Pelut is surely aware of these claims. It would be great to hear from him to clarify what they did. Or think they did. Pelut?
Some of really care about these crumbly towers, it's sad to read this stuff.
This deserves repeating:
A hole is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A trench is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled bashie is a hole is a hole is a hole. A drilled wooden peg is a hole is a hole is a hole is a hole. When you can grasp this principle, you will have grasped what we Americans think about aid climbing and aid climbing ratings in America. Use the FEATURES of the ROCK as much as possible, and CALL a hole a "hole" when you report what you did. DON'T drill for virtually EVERY placement and then CLAIM: "Only 33 mini bolts used...."
crunch
Steve Bartlett
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madboIter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2012 - 09:52pm PT
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NP, Steve. God knows, as do many others on the Taco, that I've had my share of rants; and I can't even blame whiskey. lol
Yeah, based upon my "restocking" trips during the weeks, I'm guessing that 90 holes is about right for my retro-fit. And I certainly understand your concern. I do, of course, think that we shouldn't kill the messenger. The "route" left by the FA team was unrepeatable without TONS of additional drilling... either to make usable their holes (which I just couldn't bring myself to "validate" in that way, or by drilling new holes.
Regarding whether or not I did a "new route," I would say this. Except for about 60 feet of their seventh pitch (my fifth), I was either exactly on their route or within spitting distance of it. My goal was to keep their route under constant and very close scrutiny, while working a better "line" through the continual corrugations of the wall.
This "flexibility" meant that I made use of many small (but actually usable) features for a placement or two, instead of following the FA team into oblivion... for example into a totally bottomed "seam, like on their fourth pitch, in which they just trenched heads and drilled straight-in bashies for fifty feet.
This tactic also enabled me to work through the thin points of overhangs instead of (apparently) intentionally just drilling out the thickest points (with correspondingly more holes)! So, except for their seventh pitch, my "variation" meanders all over their route (often right on it), always within no more than about 20 feet of their "line." By so doing the route makes MUCH more sense and is done with much less drilling! A few years of natural processes will largely or completely cover most/all of their holes, effectively erasing most of their ridiculousness.
For that 60 feet I didn't lay eyes on, they went way right around a corner (drilling all the way there) and then came back left 60 feet higher (where drilled holes reappeared). That intervening section is part of their "A5R" pitch, and from above I could see down part of it that I couldn't see from the side. ALL drilled bashie holes. And what I found is that their "A5" and above was ALWAYS just drilled bashies. And, believe me, they were sewing it up... I guess to mitigate the "risk" of zipper.
Again, I could have just bailed, and, again, maybe I should have. That's an open question that will always haunt me. But I keep coming back to the simple fact that the only way to know the whole story was to do the whole route. And that produced a constant tension regarding HOW to get up the damned thing!
I'll say one more thing. At times the "best" choice was to just use one of their existing trenches. Where I did this, I planted nice, stainless-cabled heads and left them in place; they are solid. That "rock" simply won't sustain the cycle of trenching, jerking, re-trenching, jerking, etc. So, I ended that cycle wherever I used one of their trenches. My WHOLE goal on the retro-fit was to ELIMINATE the need for ANY future party to drill, chisel, or re-trench to get up the thing.
Regarding my tongue-in-cheek response to the hole-estimate of their route, I will say that there are hundreds and hundreds of holes. HOW many is open. I quit counting early on, as it was just ridiculous. 300 holes (or perhaps even more) is certainly not out of the question. As I say, there were over 50 in the first pitch alone (every 18 to 24 inches!).
Again, I am very torn about what I had to do to find out the whole story. But, I didn't put the POS up, what I left behind is MUCH better by every metric, and at least we now do know the real and complete story. Pelut has no wiggle-room and no "easy exit" via ANY argument at this point. During the ascent, I reached the point where that became the primary issue to me.
I agree that my charges are "grim." I've been (unjustifiably) on the receiving end of such charges myself, so I know the gravity of it. But the facts are what they are, and I did as careful and thorough a job of documenting the mess as I could, while trying to retro-fit the mess as best I could. There's no "win" to be had with the SA, and I'm not proud of the SA. But the "route" was an epic botch, arguably the worst in climbing history, and I did the best I could with what I had to work with.
Thanks, Steve, and all the best to you,
Richard Jensen
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 07:08am PT
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Bumping - I'm curious as to what thoughts or response Pelut and crew and/or Rivet Hanger have regarding the last few days worth of posts.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:46am PT
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Ok Richy, it's obvious that you had to ripe the route by bolting it and putting belay chains there where didn't exist! I just thank God (not endeed, I do not believe in God, but it's just a way of expression) that Ammon and Kait didn't do the same to your controversial Wings of Steel (just A3+ if I'm not wrong, am I?)...
To Jeremy: Sorry, I'm not Pelut's messenger. If you need his email to ask him for a topo (I think he'd be pleased to give it to you), I suggest you to write on Desnivel magazine forum or ask it to Richy... Don't be lazy, internet is a big information provider, give up this typical American navel-gazing attitude. Anyway, I'll be very pleased to see photos of both Titan an Kingfisher routes after your coming trip, specially the shinning bolts and bomb-proof belay chains...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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Ok Richy, it's obvious that you had to ripe the route by bolting it and putting belay chains there where didn't exist! I just thank God (not endeed, I do not believe in God, but it's just a way of expression) that Ammon and Kait didn't do the same to your controversial Wings of Steel (just A3+ if I'm not wrong, am I?)...
Ahh. I think I'm starting to see what the larger issue is here.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:54am PT
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I don't think so, Titan can't feel shame...
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Sep 19, 2012 - 11:57am PT
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Rivet, you're not really addressing any of the points Madbolter is making. Go back, have a look at his post, and see if you can come up with a response that's something more than just a sad attempt at an Ad Hominem.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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Oh shi# dweeb not the ponies again!
Rivet hanger, all you keep saying is that he added bolts. Are you going to reply to his comments about all the holes pelut drillied? What a botch job!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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I want to get some of that de-javu coffee.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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This thread is the Supertopo equivalent of that VH1 show "I love the 80's!"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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How come nobody is giving them props for being green and all with the wooden pegs?
Now all ya gotta do is take yer brace and bit along to auger out the pegs!
SWEET!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
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No, too boring.
I think his position is really clear and mine, too...
I'm not Pelut's voice, he's grown-up enough (altough he can't English), but if bolting a previous route is ethic for you and justifies the destruction of bashie's line, everything is clear.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:28pm PT
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Well done, Jeremy! The first interesting thing you do. Come on, attemp the SA of the new route on Kingfisher, create a new web side and tell the world. And if you must drill more than the original route, don't worry at all, the whole USA will support you, dude!
"It's a f*#king travesty and he should be f*#king ashamed to call himself a climber."
I agree, he has a really bad climbing curriculum...
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Sep 19, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Pere Larocalla (Rivet Hanger) -
Lots of passionate name calling going on here, which is typical for the internet. You keep bringing the topic of the SA up. Let's set the SA aside for a moment - I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the style. What I, and others, are trying to understand is the following:
1. How could the SA be done without drilling if the methods used on the FA were unsustainable, and seemingly trying to obfuscate what was really done - wooden dowels broken off, bashie holes that were destroyed?
2. What was the intent of the FA team in trying to say they had established the hardest aid climb in the world when in fact any rational person would not think that a ladder of holes, no matter what filled them, could be considered anything more than scary - certainly not hard.
3. Why lie about the amount of drilling done - was the expectation really that no one would go up to see for themselves? I believe in all areas it is common tactic to identify all holes drilled - look at any of the topos for my routes and I clearly call out every hole on lead, and where the drill touched rock.
Are the comments in this thread yours, or are they coming from Pelut?
Let's have a rational discussion and some real answers to the questions that have been asked versus the ongoing name calling.
Paul
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 19, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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Hey Jeremy, at the risk of sounding like a typical American navel gazer, who are homeboys sponsors? Id be happy to write them and let them know how I and other locals feel about this.
I don't think these guys are going to answer any of the pertinent questions because there is no excuse for what they did. All a climbers got is his credibility and these guys have lost theirs.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Sep 19, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Thanks Jeremy, will do.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Now I see why he likes climbing on sandstone.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Sep 19, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
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That's not pretty. Is that what you call a bashie? Is that destruction (clearing out the mud around it) warranted?
I'll stick to free with the (too) occasional hang for a rest. But if I were to get into real aid I'd find out how to make the best style work.
Thanks for the police work guys. The towers rule!
Arne
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