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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Why no cry out about Petzl Lynx crampon front points breaking off in the first days of climbing on them? There is plenty of photographic evidence of that happening too.
Really? Was it brought up to the company, documented, more than one case?
I was thinking of getting a pair of those, but may change my mind of that's the case. Please do post up about that.
Gear failure is a pretty important subject, and we all should publicly report these incidents.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Why no cry out about Petzl Lynx crampon front points breaking off
Funny I had that conversation this week with Petzl staff. I have documented a single lonely pair of Lynx that have broken. If you know more I would like to hear it. Although Petzl admitted to more than just the one pair in Italy early in the season. They also said they have had fewer returns by percentage on the Lynx than the Dart and Dartwin over the years. Darts and Dartwins are well proven and really tough crampons.
They might break a front point on occasion but no one from Petzl telling us it is user error, or the wrong boot, or a beginning climber's issue.
Adam is right. The Nomic recall was a surprise and may be over the top imo. As it wasn't ever a safety issue. But because of that and other corporate actions Petzl certainly has no credibility issues. Our community is well aware Petzl is looking out for its customers.
BD? This thread is proof they missed that boat a year ago.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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These threads are insidious. They are diabolical. They draw you in when you know better.
I have gone so far as to put 3 little sticky notes on my computer. They say DO NOT POST
And yet -
Here I am - posting.
I don't think the point here is chromo vs stainless. I've heard enough knowledgeable folks weighing in on the subject I'm prepared to believe chromo is superior. However - I also see no reason why a reasonably good crampon cannot be made of stainless. Maybe it would get dull faster or the points bend or something. Whatever.
Seems to me the point is this:
Is BD selling a flawed product? I don't know. All I hear is rumors from people who are obviously convinced they are - but to me they are just rumors. I would feel a lot better - well not a lot since I don't care all that much - if BD would make some kind of public statement one way or the other. I'm pretty much prepared to take very seriously anything they might say.
Peter Metcalf's supposed statement "Our crampons rock!" does not address the issue. Of course they rock. I have a new pair of Stingers and as far as I'm concerned they are the absolute best crampons I've ever used.
Will they break? Well I don't think so. But then they are not Sabertooths and I have no experience with those.
I'm sure there are thousands of highly skilled ice climbers who could have a crampon break and merrily carry on. So what? That's not the point either.
I myself have had picks break and even had crampons come clear off my boot at least a couple times. I'm sure it's due to my decades of experience and lightning quick reflexes that saved me. Although now I think of it I do climb with a lot of people who have neither. I'm not sure they even have slow reflexes a lot of the time.
The point is - Are BD Sabertooth crampons defective? Are there a lot of breakage instances or is this just a tempest in a teapot with a bunch of idiots like myself prattling away just because they can?
What I find worrisome - not really, don't really care - is silence from BD.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Bravo Bob.
You SHOULD post.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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why would black diamond piss down our backs and tell us its raining?
if crampons are breaking they are not strong enough.pretty simple.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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So at least 2 pairs of lynx have had broken front points, some dude in the NE and at least one guy in Italy. Those 'pons have only been out for a few months, at that rate they could have just as many or more returns than BD. No recall has been posted by Petzl on that crampon, so again why no outcry on that?
I'm not trying to bash Petzl either, they make great products, but their gear breaks too, so does Grivels, and Camp etc.
I understand completely why people want an answer from BD. I do too. Give them some time, I'm sure they will have an answer. But do you really expect anyone from BD to come on this forum and try to appease this mob? That would be insane, I have gotten beat up bad enough just trying to defend it a tiny bit. You are asking them to post here just so you can beat them up.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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if crampons are breaking they are not strong enough.pretty simple.
Weight = strength.
Guys pushing the limits are sharing sleeping bags, and not bringing packs to cut weight on hard routes. Would they be willing to climb in an unbreakable crampon that weighted 2x or more what new ones weigh?
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Give them some time, I'm sure they will have an answer.
Sorry you are late to the party and no intention here to beat you up. The Lynx have been out longer than you have suggested. Two pair of broken crampons isn't what BD has had. And most importantly Petzl hasn't tried to "excuse" themselves from the discussion as Belcourt did on Gravsports last year as "operator error" and "samples".
This discussion is well over a year old now. Not 2 pairs of crampons in a season.
Your Weight = strength holds no water.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I don crampons only once every couple of years, but I do know a little about practical metallurgy.
What alloy is BD using?
NONE of the austenitic stainless steels are heat treatable (300 series)
The Martensitic (400 series) are as well as the precipitation hardening alloys (17 series)are,but those are really expensive and I doubt anyone would be stamping crampons out of them. The only stainless I'd want a crampon made out of would be 17-4,as a forging, not stamped.
Rolled plate also develops a preferred grain direction. Crampons are punched from plate.
It could be something as simple as orienting the raw plate the wrong way in the stamping press.
CroMo especially the 41XX series has a long and well understood history with climbing appurtenances, but even then working metal is as much art as science.
The art portion doesn't outsource readily.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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And most importantly Petzl hasn't tried to "excuse" themselves from the discussion as Belcourt did on Gravsports last year as "operator error" and "samples".
Belcourt also mentioned that crampons are more likely to break if boots are too flexible for the crampon configuration. And he went on to say that they were going to switch to flex bars in crampons to help account for this. So he isn't just trying to blame everyone else, although I'm sure that "samples" and "user error" could be the case for at least a couple of those broken pairs. Maybe flex bars are the answer,Grivel has them too, there must be a reason.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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I don crampons only once every couple of years, but I do know a little about practical metallurgy.
What alloy is BD using?
NONE of the austenitic stainless steels are heat treatable (300 series)
The Martensitic (400 series) are as well as the precipitation hardening alloys (17 series)are,but those are really expensive and I doubt anyone would be stamping crampons out of them. The only stainless I'd want a crampon made out of would be 17-4,as a forging, not stamped.
Rolled plate also develops a preferred grain direction. Crampons are punched from plate.
It could be something as simple as orienting the raw plate the wrong way in the stamping press.
CroMo especially the 41XX series has a long and well understood history with climbing appurtenances, but even then working metal is as much art as science.
The art portion doesn't outsource readily.
Grain direction is definitely important.
Lots of knife blades are made out of various 400 series stainless steels, they seem to work just fine...
I really like the Art vs science comment... Very true.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I think they are ferromagnetic.
Not 300 series.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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Belcourt also mentioned that crampons are more likely to break if boots are too flexible for the crampon configuration.
Ya, the boots Bill was refering to in that post was a pair of new Nepal Evos. Helps to have full disclosure and the context if you want to discuss the topic in an educated manner. Same boot which at the time Bill was climbing in himself. No way anyone can realistically call a new pair of the Nepal Evos flexiable. At that point I started questioning anything coming from BD on the subject. It was nothing but spin imo.
Again with all due respect, the defenses you have offered are ill informed and uneducated.
FWIW BD horizontal crampons are laser cut from plate then cold formed in SLC last I checked in person (2 years ago), not stamped.
Knife blades? There is no, I repeat. NO, relationship to the proper steel needed for a quality stainless knife blade and a good pair of crampons. I've made pleanty of expensive, collector quality knives so it is an easy comment to make and back up.
I'm sure that "samples" and "user error" could be the case for at least a couple of those broken pairs.
I have been climbing a long time and have a fair back ground in metalurgy and manufacturing. I have never..as in NEVER seen a pair of crampons broken by user error. Not impossible I guess just never seen it.
This seems a more reliable comment.
I understand completely why people want an answer from BD. I do too.
Simple, direct and not unreasoned.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Again with all due respect, the defenses you have offered are ill informed and uneducated.
FWIW BD horizontal crampons are laser cut from plate then cold formed in SLC last I checked in person (2 years ago), not stamped.
Knife blades? There is no, I repeat. NO, relationship to the proper steel needed for a quality stainless knife blade and a pair of crampons. Again you need more info on steel and manufacturing if that is your response.
I'm sure that "samples" and "user error" could be the case for at least a couple of those broken pairs.
And you came to this conclusion how? I have been climbing a long time and have a fair back ground in metalurgy and manufacturing. I have never..as in NEVER seen a pair of crampons broken by user error. Educate us as to why you are sure that is the case here.
Dane, I know how BD makes crampons, I saw it myself when I toured the factory about 6 months ago.
As far as the knife thing goes, sure its not an apples to apples comparison, it wasn't meant to be. But people like you seem so convinced that stainless has no place at all in any type of application like this. A knife is a pretty high abuse item that climbers are used to. If stainless was such a horrible material why would you use it on something else you rely on to not break?
"I'm sure that "samples" and "user error" could be the case for at least a couple of those broken pairs."
If you read the entirety of that sentence you would notice there is the word 'could' which is defined as: Used to indicate possibility.
I will stand by that statement; I'm sure that misuse etc, is a possible explanation for some of the breakage. I will try to be a little more careful in my wording so as not to confuse anyone else.
"I have been climbing a long time and have a fair back ground in metalurgy and manufacturing."
What's your background? Please enlighten me? I'm sick of people claiming to be experts on things with no credentials. I have a degree in Mechanical and Nuclear engineering and work in an aerospace manufacturing facility, we do sheet metal forming of everything from stainless steel to titanium. We make parts for helicopters all the time to replace ones that break, like KP said in the last BD Lab report, Everything breaks.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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What's your background? Please enlighten me? I'm sick of people claiming to be experts on things with no credentials.
Curious..have you ever written under the name Halifax or Oaklem?
Let me be clear. I have never claimed to be an expert on anything. I have how ever made a decent living for the past 20 or so years designing, building and heat treating high end guns, knives and small machine parts. Hands on from design through manufacturing and retailing. And much of it from stainless. Including some amazingly durable and stupidly expensive BD picks from esoteric alloys among other projects. I have always written under my own name or initials every where on the net. So I am easy to verify. Not everyone is.
I have tried to not make this a personal attack. But it is hard not too imo from the recent comments. It is very common to break a knife blade....any knife blade. The consequences are seldom fatal even on the battle field. When given a choice almost to man, knowledgable makers/users of knives will select a chromoly blade over a stainless one btw. Forged as well. Not a version from simple stock removal. The reason? Stength and grain alignment. As I said previous I think you are ill informed on the current topic. It aint apples to apples or even remotly close. Why would you make such a ill concieved comparison?
Which is why I also quoted you in context and in full. "You are sure it could be the result.." Dude, you really need to run for office with that answer.
I am just as sure I don't want my friends climbing on stainless horizontals until BD comes up with some believeable answers or we stop getting reports of broken crampons. Likely the latter but the damage to the brand by that time will just as likely be noticable in their sales I suspect. Obviously BD thinks what they are doing is the right way to deal with the subject. Because sure, "everything breaks." And you don't see the obvious spin here?
I have been ice climbing since the early '70s. I keep hearing "everything breaks" which seriously is the new BD party line. I believe I have a good basis to judge what "every thing" is, in this context. And generally what the "normal" break might be. You can disagree if you like.
I have disputed much of what you have said in this thread or flatly disagreed with you because I think you are ill informed on the subject and wrong. I have noted however you have not bothered to rebutt a number of my comments that seem on point rather you just change he subject.
I have yet to find a metalurgical engineer who disagrees with my stance on stainless crampons and how these crampons in particular are being manufactured. I have no doubt a reliable stainless crampon can be made...the Cyborg and Stingers are good examples of a reliable stainless design and build process.
Bottom line is I don't care what your formal education is. BD has what, 8 engineers that do product failure testing in house? If you are going to tell me that the catatrophioc failures BD has experienced on the horizontal crampons, for over a year, is "OK"..or the norm, or within reason...as a simple climber..I call bs.
IMO there has never been a reasonable explanation for the failures. I do know there was a inline design change that added 38% by BDs own admission to solve the breakage issue some time in late 2010 or early 2011. If that had solved the problem we wouldn't be having the conversation now imo. But then you can still walk into some retailers and buy the 1st gen Sabers. btdt myself. So..as an engineer what would be your thoughts on all that?
"Interesting observation from a picture. 2nd gen Saber on the left and 1st generation Saber on the right. Serac's look to have added the same amount of material to the forward rails. Difference across the flat, in the same area as the breaks above, has gone from .53" to .70". Or if my numbers are correct, a 38% increase in material to the rails. The center bar on the front points went from .50" to .62" or 24%."
I am not convinced. I'll be soloing in crampons tomorrow if I can get out of bed. And you can bet it won't be on any BD gear simply because we are still having this conversation.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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It's clear that BD won't address the issue at hand in a clear, concise, open and honest manner.
All of which means that BD is not looking out for the people that use their gear.
Warren Kanders and Peter Metcalf bought $10,000,000.00 worth of shares in March within the span of one week. Warren Kanders knowingly sold defective body armor to the US Government and had to pay a fraction of the cost back in a lawsuit.
No one from BD is willing to openly discuss their dangerous product.
Why then silence?
If Petzl had 18+ pair of Lynx break there would be a recall.
Oakm claims that there is overwhelming photographic evidence of Lynx breakage yet with multiple searches I could find none. I called Petzl and they said that there have been 3 pairs in North America that broke. They said that they are keenly watching the problem to see if it grows and if it deserves a recall.
Petzl is honest.
Petzl is looking out for the climbing community no matter how small of a percentage it is of sales that come back as failures.
1) If there was no problem why did BD add 38% more material to the Sabertooth?
2) If all crampons break why is it that no one else reports the same type of breakage in the same manner in the same time frame? Vasak and G12 don't seem to be breaking.
3) Why won't BD admit that they made a poor choice in material?
4) Why is BD claiming that it is the boot causing the failures when the same boot doesn't fail other crampons of similar design?
5) Why is BD not openly addressing the problem to the climbing community?
6) Why as a community are we questioning a major supplier of equipment?
If a car had a major failure that could result in death there would have been a recall with far less than 18 documented units. The CPSC would have gotten involved long ago. BD is not looking out for our interests as climbers. BD is not looking out for my interests as a shareholder. BD is hoping with all desperation that this just goes away and they can go back to making "Crampons that rock!".
Sorry Peter. You aren't running a little business in SLC anymore. You're on Wall Street now and that means that there are people that pay attention.
My suggestion is to buy BDE. Buy it and vote against Peter Metcalf. Vote against Warren Kanders.
Black Diamond doesn't give a sh#t about climbers.
If BDE cared Belcourt would say why crampons are failing in a way that their competitors crampons aren't. BDE would say why boots are causing a crampons to break. BDE would explain why it is only BD Crampons seem to break with "flexible" boots when Grivel and Petzl seem to accept flexible boots just fine. Belcourt would also be able to explain why BDE added 38% more material to a crampon that wasn't breaking...Why add material then?
BD is not an 'employee owned' company. I am a shareholder and I demand answers.
Come on BD....
As for OakM.
You seem to be the mouthpiece of BD do you want to speak on the record.
Who are you??
At this point you are on record defending Black Diamond Equipment.
From here on out I am going to claim your statements as public record of Black Diamond Equipment (BDE) unless you make a valid claim that you do not work for and do not take payment from Black Diamond Equipment (BDE).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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This is not just another message board. This is the Taco.
Credibility is linked to identity.
Man up or shut up.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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If a car had a major failure that could result in death there would have been a recall with far less than 18 documented units.
You make a good argument, but this point is weak. There are way too many cases where it has taken hundreds of incidents before a recall happened because it often is about the cost benefit ratio.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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There are way too many cases where it has taken hundreds of incidents before a recall happened because it often is about the cost benefit ratio.
Which once again brings it back to a question of corporate culture!
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