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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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If I remember correctly, Maestri returned to Cerro Torre and put up the compressor route as a way of saying a great big "F*#k You!" to the climbing community -- a community which had expressed doubts about his claimed first ascent.
Which puts the whole chopping thing in a different perspective. If his "first ascent" had been legit, maybe one could sympathize with what he did on the compressor route. If, as now seems to bee the case, his "first ascent" was a lie, then why venerate his "F*#k You" response?
And, of course, no one expounding here really has any idea how many bolts were chopped. A couple as a symbolic gesture? Dozens? Hundreds?
Why not wait until you know?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
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I always considered the Compressor Route as South America's finest "Nose-in-a-day" route... Perhaps it still is.
Though it all appears to be speculation at this point, a question arises--instead of "fair-means" climbing the Maestri line on the headwall then chopping it, I don't understand why they just didn't put in a bad-ass variant up somewhere else on the headwall? The headwall is wide and very featured, and the line Maestri picked for those final three pitches almost arbitrary. (edit: maybe they did--the details at this point are still unclear).
The Cerro Torre headwall bolt ladder is very much akin to the final bolt ladder on the Nose--sure, it could have been done originally in better style, but in both cases, the first ascentionists were simply ravenously drilling their final path to the summit. Yet there have been plenty of subsequent ascents on both the Nose and on Cerro Torre who had no complaint and were happy to clip those bolts!
To me, "fair-means" seems arbitrary if only applied to bolts used for upward progress. Belays are part of climbing too.
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throwpie
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 20, 2012 - 03:48pm PT
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Werner got it right.
When I learned the game in Yosemite, you started at the bottom and climbed to the top as cleanly as possible. Bolts were an excepted method of getting from crack to crack or creating a bomber anchor. Almost everyone knew when enough was enough. There was debate and limits were pushed for sure, but there were no top down pure bolt routes until the sport climbing eruption. Some bolt routes did exist, but they were put up on lead. The Compressor Route pushed it too far and the controversy started as soon as word was out. Chopping them? Fine. (they WERE placed on lead) But where do you stop? Sport climbing has its place for sure, and it opens up a lot of acreage that couldn't be enjoyed without bolts.
If it isn't placed on lead, it's glorified toproping. Toproping is great fun, but it's still toproping, not climbing. My geezerhood two cents.
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Cor
climber
Colorado
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Jan 20, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
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a few thoughts...
comparing the compressor route with the nose - (bolts)
is like apples and oranges. they are very different.
the compressor has been considered a disgrace since it was put up,
the nose on the other hand is/was not...
sure people have climbed both. but they are very different.
i love patagonia, i got to summit fitz roy, what a magical place...
sure i would love to summit cerro torre. which route would i probably try?
the compressor...(cuz i am weak)
am i mad that it is gone?(if it really is) hell no!
it just means that i should have to try hard for the mighty peak, and not follow the tame yellow brick road. another words, sack up!
that compressor route did not fit in with the ethics of the area. never did, never will. if someone put a bolt ladder up the fitz roy, would i be upset? yep. would i want it removed? yep. it would tame the peak down to the everyman/women level. keep wild places & peaks (& climbs) wild!
if you are not ready, you are not ready. if the only way you could make it up the cerro torre is by a giant bolt ladder, then maybe you better wait until you have more skill.
it is like chipped holds...(for example) let's dumb it down to our level,
so we can actually send. and so everyone knows, bolts are fine, i am not against them. it's just that the compressor route was bad style.
cheers!
cory
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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Superpin, Cerro Torre's little brother.
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laughingman
Mountain climber
Seattle WA
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
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This thread is going to get very nasty overnight.
I knew the compressor route would in time be chopped in the name of good ethics. It might have been a good idea to ask the locals if chopping the route was ok, given the history and controversy behind the route.
Anyone know if they cut the 50 year old, 300lb gas-powered compressor drill off the top of the bolt ladder?
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e9climbing.blogspot.com
Mountain climber
Alps (Euro trash )
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
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As this old article (http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=35788); just came out with regards to a "vote" held in El Chalten some time ago, in this news article http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=39055);
I think we need to accept and respect that Jason and Hayden made an ethical judgement call after improving the style in witch the route was climbed and it meant chopping the bolts for them.
With reference to the "voting article" linked to above my opinion is that a bunch of climbers that happens to hang out in El Chalten can't possibly "vote" on a topic like this and expect some one that follows in better style to take orders from the "voting" few, that's insane. HK and Kruk made a ethical judgement call and chopped the bolts. In a sport where style matters that's there call and not ours to judge.
As style improves so do we need to improve our skills if we want to follow. That some one once decided to rape the mountain can never justify the action. It can't possibly be controversial to say that it was a bad call to bolt it in the first place.
We (the climbers) have a universal responsibility to preserve the mountains and not try and get up them by any available means even if it hurts our ego, plans and ambitions. In due time some one will get it right and its for us to make sure that that can happen for them.
The fact that style will be improved by future generations has virtually never been more obvious than in this case. They restored the mountain to its original condition and we live to play by the mountains rules not ours.
ps sorry for my poor English
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climbnplay
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
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Surprisingly, Maestri agreed with the last part of Karo’s statement. In his 2000 Metri della Nostra Vita, Maestri recounts that, before making the first rappel from the high point of his attempt (he stopped 100 feet below the summit) he decided to, “take out all the bolts and leave the climb as clean as we found it. I’ll break them all.” After chopping 20 bolts, and in the face of the magnitude of the enterprise, Maestri changed his mind.
Maestri let his thirst overtake his judgement on the ascent and later regretted - BRAVO! on the team's effort to clean up after an irresponsible man who couldn't wipe his own ass.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
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In pursuit of more facts...
How does the first route on Cerro Torre, that established by the Lecco Spiders in 1974, compare with what it seems was the former compressor/Maestri/(Bridwell) route? Has anyone done both, and if so, which is the harder/more committing/whatever?
Yes, the Spiders route has a longer approach and is more remote, and that one route is mostly rock, the other mostly snow/ice/snice. So it's apples and oranges. Still, would a climber who had the experience and skill to climb the compressor route generally be OK on the Spiders route, and vice versa?
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Rockymaster
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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I think they should have left the bolts as it was... the rock face was damaged already and if you want to clean up some mess remember that is going to look ever worse than before! I have been around up there... not impress with what they've done.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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> I always considered the Compressor Route as South America's finest "Nose-in-a-day" route... Perhaps it still is.
I believe that was Bridwell's attitude, when he and Steve Brewer used speed climbing type tactics to climb it in a typical short weather window.
I remember the Leo Dickinson film where they tried to repeat it using siege tactics, which did not work because their fixed ropes got ripped to shreds by the winds in between attempts.
But I agree with the intervening post that it doesn't equate to the Nose (or Wall of Early Morning Light, which is closer but still not the same).
Here are some of the reasons it doesn't equate to the Nose:
 route had already been tried in 1968 by Crew, et al
power bolted
extensive bolt ladders on an alpine climb
For that last point, I think of George Lowe's comment on North Twin.
Quoting him indirectly via Barry Blanchard:
"George knows that adventure lies in approaching an unclimbed steep mountain wall that is draped in glaciation, brazed with ice, and buttressed with soaring rock walls; and, and this is THE most important part: a rack, a rope, and the pack on your back ... no bolts."
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=890216&msg=891804#msg891804
For WoEML, that had been tried before, and Harding bolted rivet ladders up a different and indirect start.
Maybe the most interesting question is why wasn't it chopped earlier?
I guess partly because people had not proven that essentially the same route could be done without the bolt ladders.
Although people had proven that the West Face route could be done, it was not summited much until recent years, because people hadn't figured out how to make the rime slot.
Maybe another reason that it hadn't been chopped before was the somewhat negative reaction to the partial chopping of WoEML, at around the same time.
[Edit:] I think I understand why the incentive to chop has increased in recent years.
Originally, the route was essentially left as a reminder of Maestri's bad behavior. It's one of two ways to deal with a bad route - chop it, or leave it as a bad example and people laugh at it. But over time, people forgot and it because a dream climb for some. A more accessible and even "historic" way to a cool summit. Rather ironic.
The recent David Lama episodes, with 50-70 added bolts for cameramen, has made the continued tolerance of the old bolts even worse. They are treated like a license to bolt anything, for any reason, in the vicinity.
Time for a cleanup.
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Rockymaster
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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I totally agree with Laughingman and e9climbing.blogspot.com's post... when we have a vote in Chalten we said we wanted the bolts to be left to where they are now, climb a "new and clean" route beside it but you have no dice in saying or doing what you did... the mountain belongs to everybody and to nobody. What was done, was done and who this guys think they are to pulling bolts out of the wall?
Vicente, Tehuelche... much of this guys i think will agree ... leave it as it was!
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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Mighty Hiker, I've done 'em both... both hard, both committing, both fantastic experiences I absolutely treasure. Both drove me to the edge of what I could handle, both in different ways.
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Pampero
Trad climber
Buenos Aires, Argentina
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Jan 20, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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It was january 16th., 1965. If interested, here follows the real cronology and facts about the Compressor Route on Cerro Torre that began when with Fonrouge we were at the top of Cerro Fitz Roy via the Supercanaleta in the second absolute ascent of this mountain. Because this beatiful and exigent mountain merits the most from climbers we did it in alpine style, mostly in simulclimbing, without fixed ropes, siege attacks or artificial weaponry. Behind and below us the fantastic Cerro Torre in clear skies showed with brightness his beatifull icy shape. Time afterwards - I guess it was 1966 or 1967 - at a table of a bar in Buenos Aires with Douglas Haston, Mike Burke and (was there also Martin Boysen?) we were dreamming about giving a try Co. Torre thru the Southeast Ridge and our fingers traced an ideal line over the SE ridge of one of our Co. Torre's photos we took from Fitz Roy summit. Sometime after, Fonrouge joined the British team that arrived high in this line but misteriously stopped before the icy towers. Wonder how the famous expedition rawplug dissapear...? Don't know by sure, but I always remember the conversation I had with Fonrouge at home - and his decision - after our meeting with Haston and friends at the bar that we'll never use an spit. And I also said thst...to give a try to this empoisoned mountain by Maestri's 1959's claim was a nonsense having manny other virgen summits to make. Later, in january 1970 Maestri asked to meet us in Buenos Aires when he decided to make an attempt to the Southeast Ridge and looked for details of the line but didn't mention the use of a compressor and gave us the idea to try the climb by fair means. As it is known they didn't make the summit this time. Weeks after their return I was in Italy for business reasons and he invited me to Maddona were we spent some time talking about his programmed new intent to Cerro Torre in the following southamerican 1970 winter. No words were said about the use of a compressor for drilling holes to plug spits. Upon his return from patagonia having used the compressor and claiming for his new line on the SE ridge - and also mentionning that the top mushroom was not the true summit-, more doubts appeared about his 1959's line statements. Living for professional reasons in Milan-Italy, since late 1973, I had many contacts with the Ragni Group and got an idea about the national battle around Cerro Torre's Maestri claims at the time of his public statement directed to the Ragni Group saying that his climbs were discussed by whom couldn't climb Cerro Torre. Casimiro Ferrari's answer to Maestri was that the Ragni Group climbs mountains that can prove they climb and start to organize another attack to the west face of Torre. As we know today they made the true first ascent of the mountain. More recently Garibotti, Salvaterra and Beltrame proved that no one had transit before the line claimed by Maestri. In my name and the others that resign the dream to climb for first this fantastic mountain I claim for our rights to delete from the walls of Cerro Torre all the remainings - compressor inclusive - of the rape made by Maestri in the 70's and I think that no one - for any reason - can have more rigths than ours.
Carlos Comesaña
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
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Jan 20, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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Carlos Comesaña and Jose Luis Fonrouge -- architects of one of the greatest climbs of all time. I tip my hat to you, sir. I once had the honor to shake Senor Fonrouge's hand. I hope I someday get the honor to shake yours.
(Even though I'm afraid I disagree with you on this topic. For which hopefully you'll forgive me :-) )
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
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Actually Bridwell never really intended to do the compressor route back then.
He was looking for/at a complete independent line to the top to trump the Maestri compressor route.
There was some kind of mutiny on the his ship that happened for whatever reason.
The crew left and Jim was forced to salvage his trip down there by recruiting Brewer, .. an unplanned walk-on.
Thus Jim might just have done the same back then as the these guys today? (Pulled the bolts)
Pure mental speculation at this point?
Most people that were against pulling the bolts feel the Maestri route should have been "grandfathered in" ......
If he did go that route, pull the bolts back then, would there have been the same outrage?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jan 20, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Clint-
When I equate the Compressor route with the Nose, it is not necessarily in regards to the original style, but rather in the end result.
Both routes are magnificent lines with magnificent position in magnificent places, each about 3000 feet long, and which can be easily climbed and descended in a day by experienced climbers.
Though regarding style: Harding and Maestri both "pushed" the boundaries of what was considered "fair means" of the day, though of course Maestri pushed it farther by bringing motorized tools to the mountains. (Plus Maestri's motives seemed rather negative, whereas Harding was fun and positive in the climbs he did).
Time will tell. I reckon the SE ridge of Cerro Torre will still end up as a fine day route, which appears to be Steve's concern (he's certainly not one to be slowed down by 5.11!). It sounds like it will be a notch or two higher in standard, but also that much more dependent on luckier weather windows.
And Cerro Torre is a peak where weather luck makes all the difference!
ps--Bridwell climbed the last part of the headwall without the original bolts--the last 30 feet or so, and it resulted in what was originally probably moderate A3 climbing (now A1 since it's all fixed with mashies and stuff). He essentially demonstrated that the headwall could be climbed by "fair-means" back then--though the headwall is not a place where bomber boltless belays would be common--but you could aid and/or free climb pretty much anywhere on the headwall without drilling--it's very featured).
pss--I often wonder why the same outrage Maestri received back then isn't applied to climbers who bring power drills to the mountains today. Same thing, really, just more compact technology. (Edit--for example,
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=aXRz6_EIAYQC&pg=PA284&lpg=PA284&dq=great+canadian+knife+bolts&source=bl&ots=FLI8rfTVbp&sig=t85PlzPlNT9b2jfqTLcc7d5Ir-4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-TEbT67NNM60iQfsqpidCw&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=great%20canadian%20knife%20bolts&f=false
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Gene
climber
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Jan 20, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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For those who don’t know, Carlos Comesaña (Pampero above) made the FA of the Supercanaleta on FitzRoy and the second ascent of the mountain.
Thank you, Sir, for joining the discussion. It's great to have you here.
g
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Jan 20, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
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Senor Comesena, Mucha gracias. It was only a matter of time before someone made an honorable ascent of the SE ridge. Maestri took that away from the climbers of that era.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jan 20, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
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I don't think I'd approve of a team from Argentina chopping a controversial route in Yosemite. It seems a bit presumptuous to me to chop a route in a foreign country.
Nice job on the climb though.
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