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apogee
climber
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Should we not do any of those things, Ron?
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 3, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
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He might not even had the "intent to kill" when he shot but only the intent to give himself enough time to get away.
Then why would he hang out for 90 minutes shooting at anyone trying to get to Anderson?
Does anyone know if Washington has a BOLO system? It seems strange that they wouldn't.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Knott, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. You have a source of that fact, other than Glenn Beck?
The fact that you A.S.S.U.M.E. that I listen to that freak makes an ASS out of U and knott ME. ;-) Speaking of talk radio, how's Air America doing these days with their scintillating shows?
Joking aside, I would be interested in whatever miraculous solutions you might have in mind.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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I think Werner's assessment is probably right. In my head I picture her setting a roadblock to stop a car that didn't have proper tires and a mad gunman willing to kill anyone in his way. I'm guessing she was completely unprepared, mentally, for the attack. The reason he continued shooting was to give himself time, knowing that after firing on a park ranger he would be quickly pursued. It would explain the series of events pretty well.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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I looked at the photo of the killer. He looks like a lost confused little boy defaced with ugly tattoos.
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the goat
climber
north central WA
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The perp shot her point blank (or very close) with a shotgun. Unprepared? She didn't even have time to get out of her car. He was nut. Whatever set him off really doesn't matter, only the end result. I can only imagine the grief her family must be suffering through right now.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Could be Fattrad, but if she knew then why was she not more prepared for a major confrontation? Or why would they not have more officers involved? Why would they send a park ranger to confront a known shooter and not a more qualified LEO? Maybe delay the stop until more officers arrived? Why not chase the car?
It just seems as though she didn't know the danger she was in, and by the time she did it was too late. Its all just very very sad.
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the goat
climber
north central WA
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I'm not sure I'd want to be the guy leading in the last TR photo. Full camo? Hmmm, "I think we have our man!"
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apogee
climber
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"Doing ALl those will result in the same..."
You sound pretty damn sure about that, Ron. No offense, but your experience is entirely anecdotal, and not at all representative of where the field of psychology currently resides.
I'll give you that psychiatry is pretty inexact, and probably as much art as science, but it's easy to show examples of horrific slimeballs who did what they did in spite of their history of therapy. It's about impossible to give examples of tragedies that were averted in some or large part due to psychiatric therapy, though.
If even one person and their family could be spared the tragedy and horror of some psycho who goes off, I'd say the efforts that were made as a society were probably well worth it. Donchathink?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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are there any threads on this site that arent complete train wrecks?
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apogee
climber
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"surely I agree with you theory..."
Ummm, it's not really a theory, it's more like reality....and I didn't discover it.
This topic comes up time and again, and the responses seem to generally fall into two camps:
*PTSD/pysch issues are a hoax, and an ineffective waste of time & $ to treat
*PTSD/psych issues are real, and treatment has benefits to individuals and society
You seem to clearly fall into the first category, quite neatly and completely.
Myself, I tend to lean towards the latter, but not as any kind of excuse for behaviors or actions. If PTSD was a part of this guy's psyche (the jury's out on that one, for now), he would have deserved the same kind of recourse that anyone else would have received in our society (if they don't off themselves first). If he was dealing with PTSD, and there was a chance some kind of treatment could have helped avert this, I would be all for it.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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The young woman I know in Sacto whose daddy really does have PTSD acquired from being too near a roadside bomb in Iraq tried to help him get off the streets and out of crank culture. She bought a house in Roseville, moved pops in, even offered to attend rehab meetings with him. Dutiful daughter. However, he soon left her house, went back to living on the streets, and started doing crank again full blast.
Kinda hard helping someone that messed up. You can lead a horse to water etc. etc. etc. No easy answers unless you want to adopt a completely isolationist, non-interventionist foreign police and/or stay out of the Middle East for good. Not very likely I'd say.
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apogee
climber
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"PTSD is indeed real....BUT IT ISNT an exuse to go on a shooting spree."
No-one has suggested this, Ron...but that's a pretty typical response from the PTSD-skeptics. You seem to be saying that PTSD is real, but because the legal system often manipulates the condition to it's advantage (and away from the victims), that it should be completely disregarded as a defense, and within our society as a whole.
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apogee
climber
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Personally, I get a whole lot more pissed off about the way the legal system manipulates psychiatric conditions as a defense for undeserving slimeballs.
What fattrad referred to is the integration & funding of psych therapy in social programs (obviously in conflict with his ideology)- there is some inappropriate manipulation there, to be sure, but compared to how funds are squandered in wars, bailouts, special interests...there's no comparison.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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The biggest injustice is the ones that will be hiding behind a mask of deception.
It will be easy now for some veteran or anyone [does not have to be a veteran just someone that has experienced the same symptoms] that goes crazy and starts shooting, gets caught then ends up in the hands of the jury of his peers.
His Peers: who theoretically are supposed to have the same connections/conditions to a/the same crime? No, just regular people: a school teacher, manager from Wall Mart, a retired computer technician, house wife……… people that have no connection with war and no clue what PTSD is. They will just agree with the arguments that war was the cause and the soldier really was not in a state of mind and all will be forgiven in time. He was not to blame.
Spends some time “Where” [depending if he is still in service or civilian and with the help of meds and counseling with the VA [*not the answer or solution either but a start] and gets out.
So here and it happens all the time a violent, crazed, instable 18/19 year old with maybe a few speeding tickets goes to local Army/Marine/Navy /Air Force recruiter and is welcomed to be member of a “few brave men”. Could have been nuts during his tour, finish’s his duty and leaves, still nuts and then at some time in his returned state at the right moment goes on a killing spree. Survives, goes in front of a judge to find out his guilt and his lawyer who will make sure of this after having his client’s beard shaved, hair cut and dressed in a nice suit and tie will just say “not guilty” do to PTSD when all along the defendant hasn’t experience it at all.
So yes there are the ones that have true PTSD depending on which one but the biggest problem will be the ones taking advantage of it to reduce their sentence or get off. Seriously have you ever heard some one that just got caught in plain view of shooting someone or more and is witnessed by hundreds and 50 cameras showing it was him/her and the guy says: Yes! I am guilty. When was the last time you have heard it.
As for the BOLO, Yes! FBI biggest problem is with the gang members. Gangbanger makes sure he signs up before the tattoos either stays in to get weapons training first 3-6 months then gets out or decides to go for the long haul.
The ones that stay in and go overseas get to meet all different foreign soldiers, learn the tricks and trades that the US never taught that. As for weapons and ammo: Hey! US do not use that. How do I get one of those? “Black market what is that?”
On earlier thread I mentioned “coke shell” leaves no evidence. Pronunciation of “Coke” here in the US is Koch as in Heckler & Koch [German gun manufacture Co]. Nice weapons, anyway they made a round, a very lethal round that are or no longer made or were disbanded but some fell in the hands of ? 54 - 57 different gangs in Mexico and some made there way here locally: Stockton and Modesto. So yes there is a BOLO.
The family that lost their siblings or friends due to the crazed soldier is the ones that will suffer the most.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Just a general question, what makes you think a person is "nuts" because they shot a law enforcement officer? You are all assuming this guy had some sort of mental illness. He may in fact have just been a murderous as#@&%e.
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I think the above opinion suggests that a cold blooded killer can be perfectly sane but in a moment of weakness or "badness," can be a "murderous as#@&%e." That allows us to blame "him," the perfectly sane murderous as#@&%e, and not explain away the as#@&%e's behavior with fake illinesses like clinical depression and battle fatigue.
I think what the mistake here is that "nuts" usually means psychotic, so a murderer who is not hearing voices is really quite sane, and knows better, but kills anyhow because he's an as#@&%e.
In fact the reason that a cold blooded murderer is socially insane is proven, incontrovertibly, by the fact that he murders innocent folk.
Again, only once you move outside of the blame game altogether can you see what is happening here.
JL
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Regarding recruitment, my nephew/godson Benjamin, who is on his second tour of duty in Afghanistan (I started a thread about Afghanistan a little while ago), when he was in USMC boot camp, he told his mom (my sister-in-law) that there were some fellow recruits who should not even have allowed to be recruited, due to several reasons.
He apparently helped several get through and was commended for it. What is the level of competence of an US soldier? When I was a news editor on a publication in London, one of my/the reporters, Simon, served eight years in the British Army, and he told me that the US troops serving at bases in Germany were heavy drug users and alcoholics who could not be trusted during joint field exercises.
A snobbish English soldier? No, Simon was a sound and intelligent man, and I have heard of similar stories.
As for Benjamin, he is also a sound young man. Let's hope he stays out of harm's way and returns as normal as possible (but I suppose when a bullet whizzes by your head, it can have a lasting effect).
As for the killer and PTSD, I have no expertise, so I will not comment on his state of mind, before or after the military. But his photo and tattoos does make it seem like he was sort of a nutter (okay, now I am being judgmental).
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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But his photo and tattoos does make it seem like he was sort of a nutter (okay, now I am being judgmental).
wHar and he, like 2 peas in a pod? oops, there i go being judgemental!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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But his photo and tattoos does make it seem like he was sort of a nutter (okay, now I am being judgmental).
rappbolters most likely.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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I am frankly tired like Coz of all of this hand wringing about how this guy didn't get the help he needed by evidence of the fact that he was out there, you know, murderin' instead of talking to his therapist.
The impulse to try and posit this thing in black and white terms will thwart us every time. By the above, it's pretty clear that you consider mental health professionals as add-ons largely doing a fake job that displaces responsibility. That allows us to directly blame someone (an as#@&%e killer) and to then punish him for being bad.
But does this approach help reduce crime, which is the real question.
Also, like I suspected, Stitch, you are sticking to a definition of insanity that is synonymous with psychotic, such as you'd find in the bipolar population during a manic episode, say, or someone in the throes of schizophrenia. In reality, such people are often too incapacitated to comitt aggressive crimes, which are more likely to come from those who have trauma, stress, depression, or lack of empathy problems.
If this only makes it confusing, get rid of the "insane" thing and just look at what most of these killers DO have going on. Then a lot of what some call "fake" illness will become frighteningly real all of a sudden. These illnesses might not render psychosis and psychotic breaks, where the brain can no longer process information intelligntly, but if the behavior includes murdering innocent people, the claim that the perp is not psychotic, while perhaps true, is a non starter because it gets us nowhere.
Like I said before, if you removed the onus and blame and punishment, how might you look at this?
JL
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