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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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I really appreciate how civil the discussion has remained, in spite of widely divergent views and agendas.
My input has been entirely pragmatic, first-hand experience. It's just that I hate it when groups/agencies/government makes "experiments" that impact the livlihoods of others.
So...in that regard, I hereby give everyone a "pat on the back."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan has an excellent point. My granny Felt - strictly speaking, my great-grandmother Carrie May (Chapman) Felt - was born in Wisconsin in 1882, and married a Swedish immigrant in Minnesota. They homesteaded in southwest Saskatchewan in 1909 or 1910, and had 12 children, ten of whom lived to be adults. The year they homesteaded, her husband (Richard) was at some point away for a bit. She saw an antelope or deer walking near the house, got the gun, stepped outside, and got it with her first shot. Dinner was served. She lived to 87, and was quite the matriarch.
No family stories about her shooting wolves, though.
Here she is, a few years before she died, with a few of her many great-grandchildren. I'm in the photo, too.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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DMT-
Proceeding with your line of reasoning, the Native Americans were on the continent first,
so may I presume that you are in the process of packing up your family and
moving back to Europe?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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It's not that"somehow rural folks in the interior are backwards",It's that the bonehead redneck voice is shrill and loud, for every Jan, Jennie, Brokedown ( who grazes cows on his own land) Colonel Sanders, Dingus McGee, Mike Friedrichs, speaking rationally there is a sonic cacophonic maelstrom of western n00bs ala Rox shouting the word, as they see it.
Most of my family lives in Wyoming. None of them whin about wolves, or even own guns, they actually read books!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Whining about wolves, owning guns, and reading books are not mutually exclusive.
I mean what else is there to do during a 7 month winter?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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DMT-
The "original agreement" between the States and the Feds involved the so-called "Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem," which primarily was Yellowstone National Park, and the surrounding Wilderness Areas. I do NOT live in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem some 350 miles from the National Park.
The problem is, WOLVES CAN'T READ the signs that say "Leaving Yellowstone National Park; Come Back Soon." The first time wolves were reported in MY area was only 3 years ago, but the "powers that be" were in absolute denial that they had spread as rapidly as they obviously have. That was only by confirmed observation by a deputy sheriff of a collared wolf, when G & F had to grudgingly admit "they were here." Then I lost my calves; Diemer lost his horses; John lost 3 heifers. Get the picture?
I no longer hunt for "sport" or even for the meat, but I have not the slightest qualms about killing predators attacking either my or my neighbor's cattle. I don't hunt for sport because I am too damned good at it, and whatever I shoot at, dies. I don't enjoy killing the animals I've seen grow up on my ranch.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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So do the ranches with herders have significantly less livestock kills than the ranches without herders? For sheep it seems like you could set up a couple of pens for the night and guard them.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The idea of a MeatFest, at Rodger's if possible or at a FaceLift if not, seems more and more attractive. Even if we can't do it at Rodger's place, he could bring or supply the meat, e.g. to PhatTrad. (For a fair price, of course.) We could even do steak sushi, for the bait-eaters!
Is there climbing anywhere near Rodger's ranch? He hauls himself down to the peoples' republic regularly for social events; maybe time to return the favour. Plus people already meet at Devil's Tower and Vedauwoo, which in context of Wyoming may not be all that far away.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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DMT-
"Breed faster, smarter sheep!" Now that's hilarious!! Smart sheep = Oxymoron.
One of my old climbing partners now lives up in the Idaho "Panhandle" on a small farm. He once commented to me after his kids were raising sheep as a 4H project: "I used to think chickens were stupid. That was before I had sheep."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Anders-
Crimpergirl and others in Boulder have asked me whether or not I would host a Happy Hour (or, a Happy Weekend?)at my ranch. Sure! If climbing is to be involved, I'm about 1 1/2 hours from either Vedauwoo or Fremont Canyon. Super Topo member Dingus McGee from Laramie discovered/developed a new climbing area higher in the Laramie range from my place about 15-20 miles away. It needs to have some warm weather for access after the snow melts out. But--there is some steep 5.11 climbing there! There are also Forest Service Campgrounds nearby.
Cheers!
Rodger
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Brokedown: There are feedlots and there are feedlots. It sounds like you run a high quality feedlot. Sure there are bad ones, that's what we need the Feds to regulate them.
As far as Turner and his Buffalo, he is either the first or second largest landowner in New Mexico. His have room to roam. And as far as them being "reservoirs" of disease, I think you have that backwards. Wild animals get wiped out by domestic animal diseases, not the other way around.
My local mountain range, the mighty Sandias used to have a large population of Rocky Mountain Bighorns. I often encountered them on climbs and they added a great element. Alas, they have all been wiped out by domestic sheep diseases.
All North American deer and elk that hunters harvest now have to be tested for a brain wasting disease. In domestic animals it is known as mad cow disease. I'm pretty sure you can guess where they get it from.
Cowboys used to watch the stock at night, but I guess it's cheaper to have the Feds kill all predatory animals.
If you want to live in some idealized version of what you imagine the "old west" to have been, first get some cowboys to watch your stock at night. I think you'll find that cuts your losses to an acceptable level. If you want to run a spread with one man and a pickup then I guess you can count yourself squarely in the ranks of the welfare ranchers. Oops, I forgot to put millionaire in there, but that's probably self evident.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Most family ranchers operate at a very small profit margin and skilled labor like cowboys working 24 hours a day are expensive. About the only way anyone could afford that kind of labor now would be by hiring illegals?! Of course our government could pass laws putting tarrifs on imported beef like Japan does for example, but that would crimp the interests of agribusinesses and rich hobbyists like Ted Turner so it won't happen.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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"Cowboys used to watch the stock at night, but I guess it's cheaper to have the Feds kill all predatory animals".
I was wondering if that might be what is going on.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Yes, I've been trying to figure out why wolves inspire so much hatred and fear and I think it is the pack thing.
One bear, one person or one couger, one person is scary but still a battle of wits.
One person or family pet or calf against a group of wolves has no chance.
There's the perception that wolves don't play fair. Of course all the other animals
must have been thinking the same ever since Homo erectus began coordinated
hunts with stone tools. Ironic isn't it?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jan,
Thanks for posting about your Great Grandmother...a very heartrending story. Many of our ancestors made extreme sacrifices...though very sad, such poignant histories shouldn't be lost to succeeding generations.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Noted naturalists documented wolf attacks on humans. John James Audubon,
of whom the Audubon Society is named, reported an attack involving
2 travelers .
He records that the men were traveling through a part of Kentucky near the
Ohio border in winter. Due to the wild animals in the area the men carried
axes on their shoulders as a precaution. While traveling through a heavily
forested area, they were attacked by a pack of wolves. Using their axes,
they attempted to fight off the wolves. Both men were knocked to the ground and severely wounded.
One man was killed. The other dropped his axe and escaped up a tree.
There he spent the night. The next morning the man climbed down from the
tree. The bones of his friend lay scattered on the snow. Three wolves lay
dead.
He gathered up the axes and returned home with the news of the event.
This incident occurred about 1830. (Audubon, J.J., and Bachman, J.; The
Quadrupeds of North America, 3 volumes. New York, 1851 - 1854)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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If you wish to claim that wild wolves attacked let alone killed humans, please provide names, locations, dates, and reliable references. Hearsay won't do, even if it's Audobon.
And while you're at it, make sure you list all incidents where dogs attacked or killed humans, and perhaps also deer/moose/elk, bears, and cougars.
Don't forget to distinguish those attacks by partly domesticated wolf-dogs and the like.
ps Since when is it "biased" or "insane" to request facts to support arguments? No need for ad hominem nonsense here.
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