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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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There is nothing metaphysical about it. Living life requires that we make distinctions and choices that have real consequences in the real world. Freedom of speech risks that I may say something that hurts you. The right to bear arms results in the death of four children each day and the injury of about 15,000 per year. In the case of a woman's right of freedom and privacy it means that fetuses are often killed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The first diminishment of man was the subjugatation of woman.
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stinky
climber
Guymon OK
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In your argument to preserve this freedom, I fear your style of argumentation harms your cause. To deny the real questions raised by the anti-abortion movement alienates the clueless center that ultimately decides American politics. To argue that a fetus has no soul before birth is extreme as those who argue that the soul is present at conception. The legislative reality today lies between these two points. I fear that your inability to engage the opposing view point only serves to weaken your own policy goals.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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How ever ill-advised, the point at which a fetus lives unassisted by a woman's body for the purpose of life it should be treated as a child and afforded those same inalienable rights. That said, the ability to keep the dying artificially alive for years and the premature viable months before a natural birth are both medical "advances" not without perils of their own.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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I used to be staunchly anti-abortion. My mother was adopted (and it was secret) by my grandfather when my grandmother got knocked up during WWII. I was 16 years after my last sibling. Both of us were abortion candidates and my mother and grandmother's faiths kept us from being aborted.
At the same time, who am I to say how valuable my life is compared to that of what could have been for my mother? Or how much my grandmother suffered for having brought my mom into the world?
The true reason for my pro-choice stance is simply that women will continue to abort unwanted fetuses in unsavory ways that could hurt them, render the child alive but severely dysfunctional, what have you.
Should partial birth abortion stand? I think not.
But I am too relativistic to say I'm right or wrong. Religion is solipsistic - it puts humanity above any other thing out there, and it puts familiar humanity above that. If we can work on a way to save poor young mothers from creating the same trap for their children, then we can talk about banning abortion with a clear conscience.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"To deny the real questions raised by the anti-abortion movement"
Don't kid yourself or me - they don't have questions - they have a religious agenda bent on compromising and infringing upon the rights of women. Again, a woman's right to freedom and privacy are non-negotiable. I will gladly discuss the issue ad nausem, but will never depart from that position. Any departure from that position would be to allow the imposition of some degree of tyranny upon women that I personally will always resist.
It's simple and the same as it ever was - don't have an abortion if you don't want one. The minute you start telling me or mine what we can and can't do with our bodies you open yourself up to the same in ways you may not yet understand. For the Right it is a deeply hypocritical position that shows how badly the Republican party has been shanghied by religious fanatics.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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"Yeah, the showdown is coming and it won't be a pretty day for Roe v. Wade supporters."
A huge number of Republican supporters are pro-choice. My grandmother is blindly, foaming-at-the-mouth Republican and so pro-choice it isn't funny. If Roe V Wade were to get overturned I believe we would see a MASSIVE shift in our legislative representation. Americans are complacent until the house is actually on fire....and then watch out.
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dirtbag
climber
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Maybe it will be the wake-up call that this nation needs.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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A lot of time and attention is paid to the minutia of the abortion argument. When is a fetus viable, when does life begin, etc etc. These concerns are not without substance, but what seems to be constantly overshadowed is the general public health concerns of the abortion issue. Abortion is as old as societal judgement about pregnancy. When abortion is illegal and it is illegal for a woman to get a safe abortion, abortions may reduce in number, but they certainly do not vanish. Instead, women find them selves in a sitation where they must find illegal back-alley procedures and women become permanently injured and die. Of course the poor women who are most likely to afford the most dangerous illegal methods of abortion suffer the most.
Regardless of the moral implications of abortion, until we create a society in which no woman need fear having a child not want for support, abortion needs to be safe and legal. If the anti-abortion movement spent half its energy streamlining the adoption process and on sex eduction they would find abortions decline much faster than their current methodology.
Nobody likes the idea of abortion.
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WBraun
climber
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hahaha
Hey where'd everybody go again .....
Oh oh, so you guys are saying a fetus has no rights?
I say it has the same rights as everyone else. It can be terminated at will at any time but one will suffer the consequences of such an action. Not by some religious fanatics nor by the govt. nor by any law except the Lord himself.
Oh? You said he doesn't exsist?
We will see who is right.
Independent free will to choose is the inalienable right of all living beings, but still we must carry the consequences of our actions, right or wrong.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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A fetus is an extension of it's mother, I'm pretty sure that's why we call it a fetus and not a child. All living things have rights but we draw lines around them.
Bush wants people to adopt unused embryos from fertility clinics...what other parts of reproduction gook have rights? Does every sperm have the right to inseminate an egg? Does every egg have the right to be inseminated?
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WBraun
climber
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The individual soul is within the fetus.
Sperm is the carrier (vehicle) for the soul to enter the mother.
Without understanding the science of the soul, everything in this whole thread is useless.
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wydra
Social climber
Utah
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Republican Wing-Nuts love to claim that life begins at conception. The situation I pose to them is this.
Suppose you are in a burning building, to your left is a petri dish five fertalized eggs, this building is a invitro fertalization clinic, in the corner is a two year old child. who do you save? the two year old child or the five 'children' in the petri dish?
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WBraun
climber
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Stupid analogy
Both can be saved easily at the same time. Not that it has any real significance to this subject matter whatsoever.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Werner, while spiritual beliefs are important for personal decisions they don't make good public policy, which is what the the 'abortion issue' is and what the Supreme Court decides. I personally believe that you have the right to mkae decisions based on your spirirtual beliefs and tell others about them. Other people do not.
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WBraun
climber
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They don't make good public policy
Yes so true Spin.
We have fallen, everything will become the machine, robots.
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wydra
Social climber
Utah
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you do not have time can only choose one or the other.
I can see why you would not want to answer due to the implications.
perfect analogy. thanks.
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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Poll after poll has made it clear that the majority of Americans favor abortion with restrictions on the third tri-mester.
Any Constitutional Amendement proposal will have to be written taking that into consideration; otherwise it won't stand a chance.
The big mistake the pro-choice people have made over the years is to be adamant in maintaining a position that demands zero restrictions on abortion. As the years have passed, and more people have gained knowledge about the practice and details of late term abortion, the lower the percentage of Americans supporting abortion as it now stands. Further, the attacks by pro-abortion groups on anyone opposing the present situation has only increased this drop in support. Attacking those who want restrictions, calling them religious extremists is counter productive for the simple reason that most Americans don't like LTA and are not religious extremists. Pro-abortion extremists have been their own worst enemy.
Further, PA groups have also fought parent notification, minimum waiting periods etc. PA groups have gotten a reputation for attacking parental rights and for putting the government into what most Americans feel are their rights as parents, not government. I point this out, not to identify my position on these issues but to point out that the PA lobby has greatly irritated the majority in this country on numerous occasions.
I do favor an amendment for abortion with Third tri-mester restrictions. However, if the PA forces don't compromise a bit, and the same goes for those against abortion at all, we will end up with the states deciding individually.
We can debate rights all we want, but those rights will be determined by the courts, legislatures and voters.
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WBraun
climber
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wydra
Whata mean I don't have time? Whata mean I have to choose?
I'm in that burning building dude, and I'm making the decisions at that moment rascal, while you are standing outside doing nothing but yaking, chicken shit!
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George_W_Bush
Big Wall climber
Crawford, TX
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"Until birth when child can exist on it's own outside of a woman's body this is a clear case where every conservative should be saying "get and keep government out of our lives"
Well, using this ridiculous logic, then babies should be allowed to be aborted/murdered until they are five years old or so, maybe even older. I haven't seen any kid younger than that able to survive on its own. Those kids depend on the mother for every aspect of their survival.
I am so glad I got Scalito and Roberts in there. That will define the legacy of my Presidency along with the war on terror. Terrorism stifled and Roe v. Wade overturned. Scoreboard.
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