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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 28, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
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These days... Moves are considered far more inportant than "headiness" imo.
I think that's true but is it "wrong"?
I think something like Jumbo Love 5.15, or the Free Routes on El Cap are more impressive than bold runout 5.12
It seems the headiness nowadays that impresses is free solos of tough routes (Heaven, Half Dome, etc.)
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jw35
climber
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Sep 28, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
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Well Ricky....................If nothing else, next season Super Chicken will be very popular, both for those who do the 3rd pitch and those who don't. If you ask the same question next year I wonder what the responses would be then. And as to the recklessness of my youth...........the medication is helping that.
Jim
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 28, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
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Here is the approximate location of the Super Chicken anchors (red), plus the neighboring anchors and the single pro bolt on Pussey Paws (all blue). The anchors down and left from Super Chicken are Loco Yokel; the anchor to the right is the final bolted belay on Scorpion.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Sep 28, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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The Bible has been translated into many languages so that more people can read it.
Why can't people just aspire to learn Hebrew and Aramaic?
Ever heard of Tyndale? Every English-speaking Christian should know who he is. In fact, every Engligh-speaking person should probably know who he is. His actions had a huge influence on the language we speak today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndale_Bible
Quite controversial in his time.
Perhaps the equivalent of the world's most prolific retrobolter?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 28, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
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August West: ... Or does that precedent only apply when the FA has a "no additional" bolts point of view?
I'd say the complication of note with both this and the Superpin thread is the number of intervening years. Whether adding or chopping, the passage of so much time certainly adds another dynamic wrinkle to the issue.
That was part of the point of the thread I started. I'm guessing the number of older FAists who have changed or abandoned their original ethics / position could easily outnumber those who have retained them, thus potentially opening up a lot of lines for long-after-the-fact retro-bolting.
It would be a very different conversation if Rick were asking about chopping three bolts on p3 after so many years. It begs the question of whether routes as they are don't have their own standing in any argument to alter them decades later.
[ Edit: I don't really think 'ethics' is the issue with Rick's Super Chicken p3 inquiry given his description of the FA. ]
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 28, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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But has that ever happened? A FA going back and pulling bolts on a ground up FA to make it spicier? I bet never... and rightly so. The FA got that gear and would now like to force a more runout experience? People wouldn't stand for that BS.
So far as I can tell, the whole 'FA ethic' is largely BS. It looks like a tool to prevent retrobolting except when the FA would like to or is considering retrobolting a route, and then it belongs to the community. And you'll never get a consensus in the community.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 28, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Maybe after a certain amount of time it doesn't belong to the community or the FA, maybe it has standing as is of and in itself.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 28, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
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if you allow this.
If you allow this?
I think the guy that led the pitch on the FA asked the original question.
Should we "allow" him to add a few bolts to his own route?
Even Bachar would be ok with adding a couple bolts to his own route.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 28, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
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Man...that Bachar sure left a void........
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 28, 2011 - 10:51pm PT
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Or the older bold.........Ther are plenty of climbers of all ages who can do that climb..I don't think that's the question.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 28, 2011 - 11:26pm PT
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jw35 brings up a good point. I'm climbing the third next year (even though it was on our list) But if RA hadn't asked the question, no-one would have cared. The "classic" part of the climb seems to be the first two pitches. We re-bolted (read no added bolts) "curve like her" and two climbers came up and climbed it after they heard the hammering. Just the replacement brought them up and instant rejuvenation of a great climb was in the works. I look through the R/F guide and there are so many boltless 5.7 pitches on many great climbs. One of the reasons I would want to climb super chicken is because it has that runout 5.7 and the touch of spice it adds! There are many great routes that people only do parts of in TM (Bombs over Tokyo, The Great Circle, etc.). Should these be added to to make them safe or reflect changing times? I'm glad RA put it to the community and still think he can do what he wants, but I like jw35's wait and see attitude. Even though I'm 51, I'm relatively new to the TM experience compared to most here (and certainly the FA'ers) but I cut my teeth on JT, Tahoe, and Taquitz/suicide classics and am getting up to speed on the classics of TM and trying to do my part to re-introduce a new breed to them (through bolt replacement and taking folks on them). There are many forgotten gems. I may be wrong, but RA is still here to tell us how he felt when he first led the climb. Why would anyone climbing as strong as he did at that time put bolts on that pitch? And why didn't many others back then on many routes? Times change but there are many safe routes in TM at that grade and others are being put up to reflect the times. Can't climbs be left alone to reflect what was happening when they were put up? Shouldn't the history of any time be left intact?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 12:09am PT
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It's 5.7 .... WTF man.
On that middle rock you put up the freakin sh'it in my pants run-out that I thought I was gonna die on.
And this thing is piss easy 5.7 you wankers wanna bolt up.
Go ahead i could care less but it's so freakin weird this supertopo place of all this talk and talk blah blah blah.
You all should go up there climb the thing instead of yappin on and on doing nothing ....
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 29, 2011 - 12:12am PT
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And this thing is piss easy 5.7 you wankers wanna bolt up.
Piss easy for who Werner? That's the point.
I thought you weren't advocating either way. That's what you said a few posts back.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 12:17am PT
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Like I said Bruce.
Do something.
But do something as ya all have talked this thing ad nauseum but done nothing ....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 29, 2011 - 01:10am PT
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DMT: But routes have no standing in and of themselves or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
After a couple of decades maybe they should.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 29, 2011 - 01:32am PT
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But do something as ya all have talked this thing ad nauseum but done nothing ....
This isn't even close to ad nauseum, compared to Wings Of Dead Horse or Growing Down or many other threads.
This is a civil, worthy and important discussion for once.
I'm a thousand miles away, and RA didn't ask me to do anything but bring some opinion. It's his basket.
I just happen to think that it sounds like a great route, which would be even better if some 5.9 climbers thought they could do the 3rd pitch in a reasonable manner.
What good is a 5.7 pitch if only 5.12 climbers do it?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 01:36am PT
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A 5.9 climber can do it easily.
You're just making sh'it up saying it takes a 5.12 climber.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:54am PT
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How many 5.9 climbers have done it?
I see you, Rick and Cragman, none of which are 5.9 climbers.
Who's making sh*t up?
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Sep 29, 2011 - 03:33am PT
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SC is not a test piece like the Bachar Yarian or Southern Belle. They all were probably put up with about the same ethic, not as "testpieces", but just to a high standard let's say. In the threads about Southern Belle, I remember(?) that the last pitch is like 5.9 with no points of protection. That kind of stuff captures my imagination, if nothing else.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 29, 2011 - 08:38am PT
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So Dean, you're thinking that this is a 5.7 that should be left for, let's say 5.10 and above climbers?
Of course, I'm sure I can lead the thing. I've done many harder leads and run the rope to the end many times as well. I'm not talking about me. I'm trying to think of the 5.8 5.9 climber that doesn't want to die on a 5.7.
I'm not talking about whether it's climbable, get that through your head. I'm talking about survivable in case something terrible happens.
What I'm saying is that it would be unwise and selfish for me a father of four, to go on a 150 ft unprotected knob pitch. Knobs break.
Is it so bomber that you would go up there and do it, now that you're a dad?
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