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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:54am PT
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In India they can't kill cow and eat.
If you do most fallen souls.
Forbidden.
Cow is mother of earth and Bull father.
Cow is only animal with pure sh'it and piss, this is proof.
Antiseptic.
The Westerner meat eaters are stupid, dull, ignorant and no understand ......
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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Sep 21, 2011 - 09:56am PT
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My wife, a vegetarian, chooses not to criticize the lifestyle of our neighbors when they have their weekly BBQ's.
But if she caught one of them being torturous or cruel to any animal she wouldn't be so passive. Does that make her a hypocrite? Maybe. Obviously to some here it does.
Earlier this year a dog was found, somehow still alive, after kids had poured gas on him and set him on fire. Do I process the kids actions differently then the woman who orders a steak for dinner? Yes, I do. Some here don't, thinking the two actions are the same. That's your own personal values. And I respect that.
I contribute to a few different rescue groups, mostly those trying to rehab rescued fighting and bait dogs. It makes me feel good. Most think it's a waste of time and money, or other things are more important then helping these dogs. That's cool, but I hope they're contributing to society in some other way, even if it's just mowing the lawn for their elderly neighbor.(I work on their cars for free)
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 21, 2011 - 10:02am PT
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I just sleep alittle better knowing no animals were slaughtered for my food. ymmv
Animals are slaughtered for ALL of our food, INCLUDING YOURS.
You don't think the plowing and harvesting off that nice little wheat field is a benign process, do you? That those blades chopping up the ground slice only the dirt?
Or the water diverted from the river to grow that delicious bell pepper you had last night has no ill effect on the critters formerly dependent on that water?
Or the initial clearing of the field several decades ago didn't brutally mutilate thousands of critters, and that the subsequent loss of habitat led to starvation of countless others?
C'mon.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Sep 21, 2011 - 10:34am PT
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Humans chase after their boutique dogs and put their poo in little bags.
WTF?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2011 - 11:48am PT
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Cow sh'it is pure.
The Ganges river is pure.
The gross materialists do not know what pure really is .....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 21, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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Earlier this year a dog was found, somehow still alive, after kids had poured gas on him and set him on fire. Do I process the kids actions differently then the woman who orders a steak for dinner? Yes, I do. Some here don't, thinking the two actions are the same. That's your own personal values.
I get that people are offended by cruelty but I am also offended that when their own "unintended" cruelty is pointed out to them, they excuse it and don't change.
That's what makes America the place that drops cluster bombs and other instruments of death on numerous countries around the world, killing more innocent people than any country on earth probably (and least way more than most) year after year, and yet we regard ourselves as the most benign charitable country on earth because we don't set out to be cruel or kill innocent people, it just happens because our political agenda demands regime change in Oil rich nations and we don't like casualties to precious Americans whose lives count 10x more than brown people so we fight from the air and it's hard to avoid collateral damage from 30,000 feet.
Even when we obviously torture people we consider it better and different than the torture done elsewhere.
But it must be little consolation when your flesh melted off or your limbs are blown away by an American Bomb that this was the unintentional act of a country that just wants cheap gas but tells itself it's just trying to allow you to vote for a corrupt American endorsed puppet government (Note Afghanistan now has one of the most corrupt govs in the world thanks to our handpicked guy)
I don't like to preach about this all the time but this thread is a perfect example. Folks participating every day in the death and ill-treatment of sentient animals, some smarter than Vick's dogs, trying to decide if his horrible evil can be forgiven. Now that you know, will you change? Did Vicks change?
As to other points made here, like tilling the soil kills bugs and stuff. Personally I do know that life feeds off life but feel that the more sensitive and sentient the life, the more we should avoid bringing suffering to it. If Pigs sing to their young, I'll kill the potato bug first.
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 21, 2011 - 11:59am PT
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As to other points made here, like tilling the soil kills bugs and stuff.
Small mammals, snakes, birds, etc. are also killed. Not just bugs.
One additional problem about animal torturers is that they are more likely to be cruel to people.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
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For a bit of Balance, to speak to Werner's point. I live on the banks of the Ganges for a few months a year in one of it's cleaner places, where it comes out of the Himalaya.
The water may be pure and I know it's got a spiritual something, but the crap and pollution dumped in it is not and that can make you sick. I've had a few unintended gulps which later sent me to the drug counter.
It's true that people often make their floors in India out of cowsh#t, and burn it for cooking, and small amounts are even eaten in some medicinal tinctures, but like the Ganga water, other stuff can live in there that our bodies won't like.
Peace
Karl
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maryamchaudhary
Big Wall climber
islamabad, Pakistan
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
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thanks for your such nice sharing here keep it up
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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Small mammals, snakes, birds, etc. are also killed. Not just bugs
I guess we always wind up in making judgements about scale and degree as well as intent. Similar points could be made comparing excesses and negative consequences of horse racing, or even high school football. If one thing causes some killing, could it still be better than something that causes far, far, far more killing? If it's all the same, why not let Vicks fight dogs.
Somehow I can imagine that Vicks dogs, from their own dog perspective, aren't really suffering more, or much more, than some Veal whose entire life is in a tiny box or a smart pig in a feedlot. After all, when we look at wild dogs (like Hyenas) they live a pretty predatory dog eat dog existence. Are we just projecting that this is somehow a crime like rape while our own practices are simply innocent?
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
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Karl, interesting questions.
I certainly don't have any great answers.
We have to eat, don't we? And going back to hunterer-gatherer or purely DIY farming lifestyle isn't practical. So, critters are going to inevitably experience death--sometimes horribly--so we can eat.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
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Small mammals, snakes, birds, etc. are also killed. Not just bugs
So lets not try to minimize cruelty to animals because we can't be perfect right?
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
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What should we eat, Karl?
You can't figure that out for yourself LEB?
Many highly athletic and healthy people don't consume any animal products.
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:38pm PT
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So lets not try to minimize cruelty to animals because we can't be perfect right?
Um...I never said that. In fact earlier posts say just the opposite.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
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Sorry Dirtbag, didn't check who even said it
I hear that argument a lot from people who feel it's ok to treat animals badly because even tilling the soil causes bugs to die.
The best method is permaculture. No tilling, and creates a fantastic habitat for plants and animals.
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
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I am not precisely sure how the term "inbred" was used in a racial context
Sure, it's difficult for us to understand how breeding could be related to race. It's not a conscious, planned, racial slur - it's subtler and more effective than that. It's attributing their actions to their breeding. How does that play out for blacks? Are we willing to do that math?
Vick's race has no place in this disussion
Exactly, Vick's race has no place in this discussion for people who aren't black, like Vick. That's part of the problem.
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 21, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
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Monolith, I'm trying to figure out some of the big picture stuff.
All I can tell you is that I haven't eaten veal in decades because it is a cruel process, increasingly I seek out free range chicken products, and I don't like Michael Vick very much.
We seem to value intent more than outcome in many instances.
Karl gave me a few things to think about with respect to pigs. Thanks Karl.
I also think the vegetarian lifestyle is only marginally less cruel than the omnivore lifestyle.
I think this is all quite complicated, actually.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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Yep, a vegetarian who consumes milk and eggs is only marginally better. Most vegetarians have crappy diets anyway, focusing on highly processed foods.
Humans can do themselves a hell of a favor healthwise by dumping dairy and eggs.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
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Yes these are hard questions and we're all a bit guilty from some perspectives and innocent from others. We sorta mean well, and I bet Vick didn't even think he was being mean and cruel.
Let's try to be as honest with ourselves as possible. I could do better myself certainly. I buy the cheap eggs and not the organic free range ones. As a result of my own preaching here, I resolve to change that now.
LEB writes
I am in a situation where my husband does all the cooking (and shopping) and he does not want to hear about any of this. I don't have much of a vote on this matter esp when he is doing all the work involved.
Good thing he doesn't decide to serve you Dog meat or bang hookers in the living room eh, then you'd really be in a stuck situation! Some day women will get the vote and you'll be consulted!
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 21, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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Sometimes our insulting power is just sorta lame. My impression of the "inbred" remark was that it's been a slam on Southern White hillbilly types for some time but some may have generalized it and even used it for Blacks cause they didn't really understand it's roots
It possible to be somewhat racially biased and not use the right slur
Peace
karl
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