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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 19, 2011 - 06:35pm PT
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How come when Bachar chopped a bolt he was a righteous defender of the stone and when Barber or whoever does it they're a crook that doesn't own the stone?
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 19, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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I think it is fair to keep in mind the petty nature of this particular bolt to begin with. You suck it up and lead a route without it, leave the area, and not only is your route bolted, but someone calls you to brag about it.The bolt is placed by someone who is being rescued by line strung from one point to another.It was, at best, a petty thing to do in the first place, and done in spite, not some noble attempt to make Superpin accessible to the masses.
Because of this I'd say Henry was fully in bounds to chop it.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Where are you bound?
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Sep 19, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
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I gotta get me some henchmen.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Sep 19, 2011 - 06:58pm PT
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just go up there, mcgee,
less the bolt.
puke on the rock, shite your leg, curse a god.
fight thru all that,
avoid the whip.
summit.
why not?
look past the little boy within,
and there might be a man whose ready to stride.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Sep 19, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
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Or henchwimmin' Skully, just sayin'.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 19, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
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There seems like a lot better bolts to chop than the ones on Superpin. I believe a route on Bell Ringer has something like 8 bolts now that origionally had none. A bolt sprouted up on Bell Tower about two or three years ago. Has anyone been to Rushmore lately... if you thought it was sport climbing 20 years ago you should see it now.
I guess I am a local and I pretty much don't climb routes in the Needles with bolts, there are a lot of cracks you know. I do feel you should leave previously extablished routes alone but why wait 35 years to make your statement. My guess all of this will do nothing but cause problems for the people who live and climb here.
One last thought, if a route must stay in its origional condition can the bolt be replaced, what about a pin. Should only the FA oarty be able to give consent. Many routes in the Needles have very old pins that are in poor shape as are the small seams they have been put in. I have seen a lot made of whether a pin should be able to be replace with a bolt if the crack it was in no longer would accept a solid pin.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 19, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
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By the way you don't get much more local than Dennis Horning. Born and raised here and probably put in more routes in the area than all the rest of us combined on this forum. Take a look at the Piana guibook to the Needles he "is" the whole back half of the book then when your done with that look at the tower guidebook and I bet he put more in there than most of you have climbed there. We spent a few days last year repeating a bunch of his old routes in the Needles backcountry and between 6-8 of us I don't think one bolt was clipped the whole time, and that includes on top of several very hairball spires that would have normally have bolted rapel routes but he used Needles style instead. This does not mean I agree with every position he takes, but for those of you that think he is some yahoo that does not know what he is talking about and just spouting off you are wrong.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 19, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
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I gotta get me some henchmen.
Skully, I'll hench for you if'n I'm ever in the hood.
Course I'm not very good at henching, better at hanging....on bolts when I get skeert.
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Sep 19, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
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Thought experiment:
Suppose you were stranded on an island with no other people and you had a robot as a belayer. You have no other climbers to judge and no one will judge you. Further suppose that you had a route like superpin with one bolt and that you lead the route without clipping the bolt. Would the existence of the bolt change/tarnish/effect your experience?
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Sep 19, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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If you're roping up, then yes, every piece of fixed gear on a climb has an impact on your climb, even if you choose not to clip the bolt. It is more intimidating and committing to lead a route that has no fixed gear, than one that has fixed gear.
You can only disregard the bolt if you free solo the climb.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Sep 19, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
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This is bull sh#t......
$100 bucks to whom ever goes and replaces this bolt with a 1/2" stainless glue in. I would do it myself..... But the Needles are a long way off....
Henry is being a dick. Eric Sutten in being a follower(weird).
Seth Zaharias
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 19, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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Interesting how Rich being from the gunks is anti bolt. The gunks haveing literaly thousands of naturaly protected climbs lends itself to this mindset. In their pursuit of keeping their traditional roots pure and bolt free they outlawed bolts except for those put up by their committe. The committe then proceded to ruin the place by putting up a bunch of bolted belays and rap stations that drasticly changed the nature of the routs that they were installed on turning many into single pitch top rope areas.
Absoluetly criminal INMOP
Not sure what that has to do with Rich and his anti bolt mindset other than sometimes you need to be carefull of what you wish for as the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.
I do find it hard to believe however that Hot henry had good intentions when he chopped that bolt. More likly just trying to stir things up and get some press...
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 19, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
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Let us say some one replaces the bolt on Henry's route but Mr Venturesome would like to do it with the original face as Mr. Barbs did. "Impossible", Henry and I both pulled or pushed some bad rock off. I was top roped but did not fall when both foot holds broke. I was using my zone tactics for unclimbed rock. I suspect all this loose crap is gone.
So I ask,"If you can get your Henchman to remove the hanger and make it so you cannot possibly use the bolt (add nuts or get a removable bolt), has Mr Venturesome now done the route Henry wants us all to do when he summits"?
And after Mr Venturesome's completion Your Henchmen can add the bolt and hanger for all us mortals.
How long will it be until the next removal and replacement request when someone wants to try for an ascent like Mr Venturesome completed?
Oh, and let us call these Henchmen, Barber's Demons. These agents would be sort of similar to Maxwell's Demon that could reverse entropy.
And we will decide that after 10 deaths the bolt will be chopped and no (retro?)bolting will be permitted on Superpin.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Where are you bound?
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Sep 19, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
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How does one hench, anyway?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Sep 19, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
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For Skully....
...henching
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 19, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
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Skully doen't have a suit. He is missing the ace of hearts. But he could play the Jack of Hearts. Except he's missing from the scene.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 19, 2011 - 10:07pm PT
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Interesting how Rich being from the gunks is anti bolt.
I've done tons of bolted climbs. Some of then are incredibly impressive. I don't think there is anything "tradder" than heading up a steep blank face with a drill in your pocket with no idea when or even whether you'll be able to stop and drill. Kamps, Higgins, and Robbins have done some very impressive bolt-protected leads in the Needles and, of course, elsewhere.
I'm against bolts that don't belong, that's all.
"The gunks haveing literaly thousands of naturaly protected climbs lends itself to this mindset. In their pursuit of keeping their traditional roots pure and bolt free they outlawed bolts except for those put up by their committe."
There was a climber's meeting many years ago at which the vast majority argued against the introduction of sport-climbing at the Gunks. Sure, I was one who argued against sport-bolting, but I was one of hundreds. That decision was made by the climbing community at the time; that is the "they" you are referring to.
This decision subsequently became part of Mohonk Preserve policy. It was the Preserve who decided to ban bolts and the placing of any new fixed anchors, and they did it based on their view of what "Preserve" ought to mean at the crags. Neither I nor any group of climbers "outlawed" bolts.
Many years later, a committee, made up of Preserve employees and appointees was formed by the Preserve to begin a program of replacing particularly highly used rap anchors with bolts. This committee was strictly internal and the climbing community at large was not consulted.
Since you seem to be associating me with this committee and its decisions, you should know that I went on a long campaign against their bolting, eventually getting myself invited to a meeting, where I made an impassioned presentation to them, in which I warned, quite accurately as it has turned out, about all the negative consequences.
I did not convince them. Of course, they had already embarked on their program, and they had their reasons for it.
"The committe then proceded to ruin the place by putting up a bunch of bolted belays and rap stations that drasticly changed the nature of the routs that they were installed on turning many into single pitch top rope areas.
Absoluetly criminal INMOP"
Actually, the nature of the routes was changed by climbers installation of their own makeshift anchors. If you think the result was criminal, then it is the climbing community you are accusing of criminal behavior, which means that you have a lot more in common with me than you think.
The Preserve merely replaced those anchors with bolts. This did solidify the rapping culture in the Gunks, but it was climbers who initiated it and continue to find new essential places for more and more rap anchors.
"Not sure what that has to do with Rich and his anti bolt mindset..."
It has nothing to do with me, and you need a far more nuanced way to describe my position.
...other than sometimes you need to be carefull of what you wish for as the road to hell is often paved with good intentions."
True enough. That goes for folks with a "pro-bolt" mindset too. With 8 bolts in Kamps boltless route on the Bell-Ringer, several bolts on his route on Sandberg Peak, a bolt to protect run-out 5.0 on the Storjohann Route on the Outer Outlet, and no doubt many more examples I don't know about, it looks to me that hell is a lot more likely to be paved by bolt hangers than any good intentions I may have.
But not to worry; you won't have to clip them.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 19, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
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Hey Freddie,
and no one will judge
Would the existence of the bolt change/tarnish/effect your experience?
Does this type surrogate judging (as requested in the though experiment) count as judging?
You have said, " and no one will judge"
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 19, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
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Henry barber, you are selfish.
Glad I got to climb the thing when I did, way cool summit!
I have only had really good experiences with Erik Sutton, but what the f*#k???
You old guys and your bolting wars, what a waste.....
The route in question was done 35 years ago. I started climbing in 1970, and it is incomprehensible to me that I would have felt proud and righteous about adding a bolt to a face route done in 1935. Verily, have ye no sack at all?
I mean, come on. Adventure was never for everyone. And now we have people who say that it is - so long as they can engineer the adventure out of the equation. The thinking here is that adventure itself is at fault if said route requires commitment, valor and integrity, which they reframe as recklessness, stupidity and vanity.
What a waste, indeed . . .
JL
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 19, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
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Largo,
Hey soldier on the battle field,
the last time I was in bolt war I had a chisel in my hand. Now I have a keyboard and try as I have these keyboards break when I try to use 'em for removing bolts.
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