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em kn0t
Trad climber
isle of wyde
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Aug 14, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
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My problem is I start climbing really well and start pushing too hard.
Zander hits the nail on the head (ouch!). I've had similar problems with overuse injuries in the past, not just in climbing but in running too: the perplexing conundrum of these types of injuries has always been that by the time I become aware of the pain, the damage is already done.
So perhaps a place to work (especially for us geezer types) is in developing acute body awareness of the subtle signs of stress, to the point of being able to sense the overuse before it happens. Is this even possible or does our adrenaline/joy of climbing mask the symptoms until it's too late??
Would a Vipassana-style meditation routine examining feelings/sensations in each body part before/after climbing be helpful?
"You've got to know when to hold up, know when to fold up
Know when to walk away, know when to run."
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MH2
climber
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Aug 14, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
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Body awareness goes right along with body knowledge as important guards against over-training, according to some pretty good athletes, and Canadian soprano Measha Brueggergosman credits awareness developed through bikram yoga with saving her life when she had a dissecting aortic aneurysm.
Multiple Ironman-winner Mark Allen is quoted as saying, "All amateur athletes overtrain."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
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[Watts 2004] suggests this training program, but it is not very specific:
A) Develop general aerobic power (increase and maintain VO2max at 50-60 ml/kg/min).
B) Develop specific strength via hypertrophic and neural adaptation strategies (specific resistance training and "plyometric" training).
C) Develop rhythmic isometric endurance.
D) Increase specific phosphagen (ATP-PC) system capacity via short intense interval training.
E) Increase lactate tolerance via longer intervals with active recovery between repetitions.
F) Develop and maintain range of motion through static and dynamic stretching.
A) Develop general aerobic power (increase and maintain VO2max at 50-60 ml/kg/min).
estimates of VO2max:
1)
VO2max = 15 * (HRmax)/(HRrest) ml/min/kg
here HRmax is your maximum heart rate, HRrest is your resting heart rate.
I've always measured my HRmax by biking up hill in a gear that works me for a bit of time, and watched my heart rate (with a monitor). My HRrest just after I wake up and before getting out of bed, that is usually between 50 and 55 bpm.
I don't run because of knees but here is one:
2)
VO2max = (d12-505)/45
where d12 is the distance, in meters, you cover in a 12 minute run.
3)
walk 1 mile (exactly) as fast as possible and measure your heart rate at the end
VO2max = 139.168 - 0.388*age(years) - 0.077*weight(lbs) - 3.265*time(minutes) - 0.156(HR) [females]
VO2max = 145.486 - 0.388*age(years) - 0.077*weight(lbs) - 3.265*time(minutes) - 0.156(HR) [males]
For somebody my age, >38 ml/min/kg is a high value.
Wenger H, Bell GJ, "The interactions of intensity, frequency and duration of exercise training in altering cardiorespiratory fitness" Sports Medicine Vol. 3, no. 5, pp. 346-356. 1986.
This review has grouped many studies on different populations with different protocols to show the interactive effects of intensity, frequency and duration of traning as well as the effects of initial fitness levels and programme length on cardiorespiratory fitness as reflected by aerobic power (VO2max). Within each level of exercise duration, frequency, programme length or initial fitness level, the greatest improvements in aerobic power occur when the greatest challenge to aerobic power occurs i.e., when intensity is from 90 to 100% of VO2max. The pattern of improvement where different intensities are compared with different durations suggests that when exercise exceeds 35 minutes, a lower intensity of training results in the same effect as those achieved at higher intensities for shorter durations.
This is intense training, but it doesn't seem to be generally implemented in recommendations on training.
1) short duration ~30 minutes, train at 90% to 100% intensity 3 or 4 times a week, maintain at similar intensity 2 to 3 times per work.
2) work activity level 65% to 85% of maximum heart rate for at least 20 minutes 3-5 times a week.
3) 75% of "aerobic capacity" for 30 minutes 3 times a week (increases of 15% to 20% in 6 months)
upper limit reached in 8 to 18 months
maintaining VO2max, 60% reduced capacity for 2 to 3 weeks does not reduce VO2max
B) Develop specific strength via hypertrophic and neural adaptation strategies (specific resistance training and "plyometric" training).
Reading The Self-Coached Climber I would gather that this is essentially bouldering. Training for Climbing takes a long time to get around to saying the same thing.
C) Develop rhythmic isometric endurance.
Perhaps forms of Yoga might help here, anyone have any input on this?
Shields RK, C Leo KC, J Messaros AJ, Somers VK, Effects of Repetitive Handgrip Training on Endurance, Specificity, and Cross-Education, Physical Therapy . Volume 79 . Number 5 . May 1999
Background and Purpose. Exercise programs are more likely to be successful when they are based on research that predicts the outcomes of such training. This study determined the effect of submaximal rhythmic handgrip training on rhythmic handgrip endurance or work (RHW), isometric handgrip endurance time (IHE), and maximal voluntary isometric contraction for the handgrip force (MVIC) (in newtons).
Subjects. Twenty-four male subjects (mean age=26.2 years) with right-hand dominance were randomly assigned to a regular training group (n=8), a low-level training group (n=8), or a control group (n=8).
Methods. Rhythmic handgrip work, IHE, and MVIC were determined bilaterally before and after 6 weeks of a rhythmic right handgrip training program using 30% of MVIC. The low-level training group performed daily training with a near-zero load (<0.005% of MVIC).
Results. There was a 1,232% increase in RHW and an 8% decrease in IHE after the training program using 30% of MVIC for the right hand. The left hand showed a 43% increase in RHW after training, whereas the low-level training group showed a 35% increase in RHW. No differences were found between the change in the left-hand RHW of the regular training group and the change in the right-hand RHW of the low-level training group, but both measurements were greater than the change in the control group (6.4%).
Conclusion and Discussion. Submaximal handgrip endurance training at 30% of MVIC had a minimal effect on submaximal IHE and MVIC of the handgrip, but it had a large effect on RHW of the trained extremity. The regular training group and the low-level training group showed similar increases in cross-education, suggesting that cross-education during endurance training is not intensity-dependent.
D) Increase specific phosphagen (ATP-PC) system capacity via short intense interval training.
Really short (15 seconds) and really intense ("sprint") workouts...
E) Increase lactate tolerance via longer intervals with active recovery between repetitions.
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article%20folder/optimizeendurance.html
1) Increase training volume 10-20% per week; low intensity; attain maximum training volume
2) Steady state workouts 10 minutes duration at the lactate threshold (80%-90% of heart rate reserve for untrained, 50%-60% for trained)
3) Interval training intense bursts followed by return to low intensity than burst again, etc.
the total of steady state and interval training shouldn't be more than 10% to 20% of the weekly training volume
F) Develop and maintain range of motion through static and dynamic stretching.
There is no information in The Self-Coached Climber on range-of-motion, flexibility, stretching.
Training for Climbing contains a section, mostly intended as suggested warm up exercises.
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MH2
climber
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Aug 14, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
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My personal summary:
Grouse Grind
The Traverse
The Sauna
average of 3 times/ week each
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 14, 2011 - 09:34pm PT
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-As long as you indulge in it, Riley...
Ed, if Freddy ( who last week got the "all clear" from his dr who had told him "no climbing until October", after his April one labrum surgery. and fired, Spectreman last week) did post up, he might reccomend reading Chi-running,Danny Dryer ISBN13:978.1_4365-4944-4.
As he (and Anne) did to me. I'm about half way through it, and applied it to my running, that is now up to two days in a row, after breaking my foot in a groundfall in early June.
It pretty much works for any physical pursuit, even if it is oriented toward running....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2011 - 03:06am PT
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interestingly, the two different methods for estimating VO2max disagree in the same way over the 4 times I've used them in the last 4 years... two of the mile walk variety gave ~45 ml/min/kg and the two HRmax/HRmin tests gave ~50 ml/min/kg, where I established the HRmax riding a bike... the HRmax is amazingly close to the various estimates with age...
HRmax = 220 - age(years)
HRmax = 205.8-0.685*age
HRmax = 206-0.71*age
HRmax = 217-0.85*age
working out an aerobic routine at the climbing gym tonight I managed to get my heart rate up to 141 bpm, which I infer is roughly 80% capacity, or so...
so the training goal here is to condition up to ~55 ml/min/kg VO2max on a climbing specific activity...
also, looking at my weight since 1993 it turns out that I've been down 6% and up 7% a few times, but my weight has been stable +/-3% over that time period... large changes are not likely without a major life change I'd guess...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 17, 2011 - 03:58am PT
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Okay, my own sample set is only one individual but, I must say;
Those number seem to beflawed, or at least need to be taken with a grain of salt.
HRmax = 220 - age(years)
HRmax = 205.8-0.685*age
HRmax = 206-0.71*age
HRmax = 217-0.85*age
Following those, I'd be at;
165
170.05
168.325
170.25
I'm 55. I'm in reasonably good, but not stellar, shape. My heart rate goes way over 190 when running.
When I was 28, I had my max Vo2 tested (ex phys class)I was at 65ml/kilo/min and my heart hr maxed in the test at 212. Higher than expected hr, but consistent with subsequent results. I have a weird beat.I was in good shape then, training like a demon and climbing sort of hard. But latter in life I climbed harder and upped the cardio; ran 48 marathons and ultras from age 35 to age 48. I gotta think my max V02 would have been higher if measured then.
So,
if my numbers are anywhere near typical, the numbers resultant from those formulae just gotta be low. Don't they? I realize they are for the optimum from a training standpoint, lower than the max, but still...
I suspect that those numbers are skewed artificially low, for potential liability issues...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
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Jaybro, they variance is large, you can look up the papers... but they serve to get an estimate. When I'm in good aerobic shape my numbers tend to be higher than the estimates.
I suspect that my walking gait doesn't let me get going fast enough to move me into the same aerobic regime as my biking... if I learned a racewalking gait I might get it up there... pretty funky looking though.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
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Riley, thanks! great read...
another reference...
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 51, 241-247
A new predictive equation for resting energy expenditure in healthy individuals
MD Mifflin, ST St Jeor, LA Hill, BJ Scott, SA Daugherty and YO Koh
A predictive equation for resting energy expenditure (REE) was derived from data from 498 healthy subjects, including females (n = 247) and males (n = 251), aged 19-78 y (45 +/- 14 y, mean +/- SD). Normal-weight (n = 264) and obese (n = 234) individuals were studied and REE was measured by indirect calorimetry. Multiple-regression analyses were employed to drive relationships between REE and weight, height, and age for both men and women (R2 = 0.71): REE = 9.99 x weight + 6.25 x height - 4.92 x age + 166 x sex (males, 1; females, 0) - 161. Simplification of this formula and separation by sex did not affect its predictive value: REE (males) = 10 x weight (kg) + 6.25 x height (cm) - 5 x age (y) + 5; REE (females) = 10 x weight (kg) + 6.25 x height (cm) - 5 x age (y) - 161. The inclusion of relative body weight and body-weight distribution did not significantly improve the predictive value of these equations. The Harris-Benedict Equations derived in 1919 overestimated measured REE by 5% (p less than 0.01). Fat-free mass (FFM) was the best single predictor of REE (R2 = 0.64): REE = 19.7 x FFM + 413. Weight also was closely correlated with REE (R2 = 0.56): REE = 15.1 x weight + 371.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Ed, go and get tested for Max Vo2, anaerobic threshold (AT), and establish some values for aerobic activity. The formulas are rarely reliable. AT levels vary widely at all ages and, as with with aerobic levels, need to be defined for you to effectively use you time if you want to train.
There are probably several good labs near you that are set up to do these tests.
The see how your actual values compare to what your values might be from the formulas discussed.
Good luck.
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Sep 17, 2011 - 11:37pm PT
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Dang recovery time, hate it.
Thanks for the post, Ed.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 18, 2011 - 01:03am PT
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just an update... I've turned my climbing gym training regime into an aerobic workout... four up and down laps in a row, four or five times a night with heart rate getting up to 80-90% of max... and trying to get to the pump, it seems to be paying off, the time-to-forearm-pump has increased greatly.
nice to get into the flow of the movement up and down, mostly simple climbs at around 5.6, 5.7 and 5.8, though I'll do a few laps on the hand crack (just up that, down climb beside it) which is around 5.9-5.10a which gets the heart rate up considerably...
testing for my Max Heart Rate on Thursday on the bike required finding three hills, couldn't get it to max on the hill I did it on a month ago, the second hill only got me to 95%, the final hill was 100%, so it was an interval day... trashed me on the ride into work.
That evening we just climbed at the gym, and the harder climbs didn't seem so bad...
In a few weeks I'll restructure the gym sessions to be one day climbing specific strength and power (known to climbers as "bouldering"), and the other day aerobic/endurance... and see if I can keep from getting hurt doing that.
Commuting in on MWF right now, the knee is still a work in progress... but icing is helping out greatly (at work right after getting off the bike, at noon, at home after the ride in).
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 18, 2011 - 08:10am PT
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Nice work Ed!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2012 - 12:11pm PT
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an update... recurring back problem WTF?!
so my non-OW climbing friends had been beating me up about OW training being the obvious cause of my back problems... so I've been off the OW training for quite some time, though I go very occasionally to see how it feels. And I've also done OW "in the wild" as it can't be avoided.
But unrelated to everything I started to descend down exactly the same pain path as started this whole thing off years ago. Obviously I was missing something.
Taking a comment from Linda I started looking at piriformis issues as an alternative to spine disk issues. In particular, the role of pelvic muscles in stabilizing, the quads and hamstrings, the back and abdominal muscles...
...this pain was extreme while riding my bike to work, so I consulted the WWW for specific advice on bicycling and back pain.
A little comment made sense, essentially, coming back from injury it's possible that the abs aren't used, sorta like you forget technique, and other muscles compensate, but not being suited for that heavy work fatigue, cramp, etc... if it is the piriformis trying to compensate, it can effect the sciatic nerve and cause "lower back pain."
My Vitamin-I uptake was increasing up until Tuesday, when I had started to do stretching that Ron had advised years ago, and just three strength exercises: very controlled crunches, pelvic tilt and plank (on elbows and feet).
The pelvic tilt and crunches had an immediate effect on the back, the pain is receding.
On Sunday two things happened that were informative. Cragging around with Ablegabel and kev I backed off the "5.9" alternative start to Nutcracker as the pitch has become unbelievably slick, and the very poor protection at the start opens you up to a risky fall onto a ledge. This fall had broken the ankle of a friend many years ago. Since I had lead this pitch many times, I didn't need to "prove" anything to myself, I gladly backed off. (this pitch should now be rated 5.10a and a fixed pin or bolt placed to avoid the ledge fall potential... but that isn't going to happen).
The pitch we did do, the 5.8 layback pitch on Nutcracker which I had lead many times, and is actually the better of the three starts. One has to be mindful of the exit moves on the top as it is also slick there, but the layback is solid if you hunt for the good holds around the ledge.
But my observation here was a "tweak" in my back. I realized that I wasn't engaging my abs in my moves... per the bicycling thread.
So I started doing this, consciously at the gym last night. It was difficult as I hadn't been doing it, apparently, for some time.
Good climbing technique would include the appropriate use of core in body tension, and on moves. But we learn this haphazardly in our "training."
Zander and Gary have also been singing the praises of "core conditioning" which I had avoided up until now (see Luckypink's current thread). But core conditioning doesn't count for much unless it is applied to climbing technique.
So now I'm on a miraculous recovery, recruiting the abs and reducing the pain.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Core strength and abs strength are not the same. Abs are best for quick movement, core strength is all about balance. As we get older we lose out core strength to torture devices like desk chairs and if we try to make up for that loss of core strength by increasing use of the abs and other exterior stabilizing muscle groups, we get in trouble.
A strong core makes climbing much easier.
Good luck, work on the core, and then get back to your fun climbing!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 18, 2016 - 05:25am PT
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Well at 4am, I got a calf cramp that tossed be out of bed. I had to try to picture the mid-calf point that felt like it was tearing off the bone. This is not new to me I have had these crippling,
bruising, cramps for the last 3 or 4 years, in the frequency of at least two a month , not activity dependent.
I Checked, and the crap GP Dr. said I should stretch, the wife could not contain her gafauw.
I blame everything , decreased fluid intake, Lipotor, aggressive activity off the couch, the couch, Ego, that male driven peacock like need for validation, all contributed
& tapping like a mad gnome on the super, supertopo.
jstan, said:
Somewhere in my upper thirties I was doing an old problem at Carderock and felt a small tear probably at a tendon. Not so bad as to cause swelling or lasting weakness but it was obviously not nothing. My body had deteriorated and were I to pretend otherwise instead of walking and working comfortably into deep old age, I would be plagued by aches, pains, and strange weaknesses. A Broadway Joe who can barely walk.
That one of the climbers I most credit with how I go at it would still be the defining voice of my addiction is amazing to me.
We can not all be Jim or Fred, some may emulate, and stay in, but life has a way of squelching the flames of desire to torque, fingers & toes, into nooks & cranies, to try to surf with the clouds.
I've seen it, climbing, morf from the gathering of the eclectic misfits to today's polished gym maintained socially Mobil, youngsters, most stay active for 5 years then dabble gym climb and get out once in a while.
Not that there aren't more 'Lifer's' out there, but the main crowds are societal not anti ....anything.
I have to say, that is very close to my own view as the end of my 30s came & went, I was not
At 1st willing to accept, the facts, that age was a bigger part of my future ability than the need to increase grip strength or the never ending search for flexibility .
The climbing grades at the time ( 1999-2001 ) were just breaking from what was within natural ability, I felt. My goal had been to climb in the higher than 5.11s and still mak it LOOK easy.
Then 5.13s Got down rated to the level that I felt attainable, At 40 yrs old I felt my shoulders , a lot, my elbows, I did NO tapping at a key board, none.
I had the time to climb & did nonstop till the world swallowed up my stoke by unleashing the hoard from the gyms.
It was demoralizing the junk that came with kids to the cliffs, and mixed with arrogant
Young bucks, some who fell some who called their bad belaying, Piolet error?!
Made my training routine at the Trapps in the Gunks, seem like show boating.
I was just copying what I'd seen others do for 20 yrs, but it as no longer welcome amongst the pad dragging crushers of stone.
I never wanted to try the gill egg or any of the other low percentage ( for me ) Boulder problems.
I liked to save my explosive power for roped sends. The climbing culture changed, swiftly in my position as immersed as I was, I no longer stuck out in a way I liked, and I neve fit in.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 18, 2016 - 10:11am PT
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I very much enjoyed reading this, Ed. Glad it came back to the front page as I missed it the first time around.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Les Cahiers d'entrainement de la federation francaise de la montagne et de l'escalade. (1995?) The bibliography is not impressive and I am not sure the book is up to date, but I think it is one of the better of its kind.
Let us know!