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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 25, 2011 - 09:08pm PT
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I beg to differ. It's a continuum of hate and American conservatives have employed it reliably and extensively over the past fifty years. Campaigns against blacks, homosexuals, and latinos by way of 'immigration' - all carefully worded and 'coded' - have been the mainstay strategy of all recent national republican campaigns and remain so today. Current republican campaign strategies are all based upon on and designed to stir indignation and rage against 'them'. It is the very essence of hate, bigotry, and racism regardless of how carefully crafted.
You can beg to differ all you want. But if you really want to go back 50 years you will have to find an explanation for Democrat party resistance to integration in the south. George Wallace was a candidate for the Democrat nomination for president I think in was 1964?
All I am saying is that on either side of the political or social spectrum one finds dangerous extremists. You are bordering yourself here by painting with a broad brush. "A continuum of hate... employed effectively by American conservatives..." I don't think you know what an American Conservative is. Of course neither do any of the politicians, so those of us who "get it" are almost without a voice.
Cheers to you. I am very sad about the events in Norway where my father was born in Solem.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jul 25, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
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Why prison? why should he live when so many others have died?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 25, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
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Goatboy at least had something useful to add, which is that thousands of children around the world die unnoticed every day, from disease, hunger, politics and violence. Generally those with other than white (pink) skins. All the more poignant in that the UN recently declared that famine once again stalks the Horn of Africa, and the Norwegian government immediately committed millions of dollars to famine relief. (The total is around $50 million, if I read it rightly.) And there is another famine in North Korea, due to the totalitarian regime's incompetence.
The arraignment of the murderer today was held in camera, due to security concerns, and he will be held for eight weeks before the next hearing. For the first four, he will be in solitary, having only contact with his lawyer. The police continue to investigate whether there were accomplices, and links to other terrorists. The murderer claims such things.
(Except when quoting another source, I refuse to identify the murderer by name.)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 26, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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Because that is the law of their land
It wasn't the law when Vidkun Quisling was put to death by order of the Norwegian Supreme Court (sentence pronounced by chief justice Erik Solem.)
Yes I have studied the controversy about that. Sometimes closure is a good thing. Death awaits each of us. Some beg for it...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 26, 2011 - 02:22am PT
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Kris, any relation? There seems to be a tiny place named Solem, near Namsos. My family's from near Tretten, though of course there are cousins all over.
Norway's post-war treatment of German war criminals and of collaborators, remains a subject of debate. It abolished capital punishment before the war. The government in exile, which could legitimately claim to be the de jure but not de facto government, passed decrees in 1941-42 that provided penalties for treason during the war, including reinstatement of capital punishment for high treason. Somewhat hypothetical then, but not after liberation in May 1945.
About 28,750 were arrested for crimes during the war, and very public trials held. In the end, 25 of the 30 Norwegians convicted of treason were executed by firing squad. Another 12 Germans were executed for war crimes by Norway, and three other Germans by the Allies. (Five Germans were executed in Poland for war crimes against Polish prisoners of war in Norway.) The court was within its powers to pass such sentences, but there was vocal public debate about whether Norway should have the death penalty at all. There was also the legal issue that the newly-elected Storting had not yet met to ratify the acts of the wartime government in exile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_purge_in_Norway_after_World_War_II
Norway's record during the war, and behaviour after the war, are still a matter of some debate. The subject recently resurfaced with the movie Max Manus, about a saboteur-hero who specialized in blowing up German ships. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Manus); He led a charmed life, although many of his comrades died, and many more civilians were killed by the Germans in retaliation. Norway suffered greatly in the war, although compared with Poland, Yugoslavia, Belarus or the Jews of Europe, relatively few died. The north was devastated during the German withdrawal of 1944 - 45.
One embarrassment is that Norwegian women who married or had babies by German soldiers were often mistreated after the war, sometimes persecuted. Although in many cases it was simply young people doing what they do. One of them was the mother of Anni-Frid Lyngstad, later a lead singer of ABBA. She was forced to emigrate to Sweden in 1946. The European Court of Human Rights later ruled in their favour.
(ABBA has refused to allow its songs to be played at meetings and rallies of right-wing parties.)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 26, 2011 - 02:50am PT
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Any relation? I am told so, an uncle of my father. The resemblance is siginificant.
Yes Solem is near Namsos, north of Trondhiem. I would like to visit there. My cousin did and she came back with beautiful pictures and stories.
This thing makes me very sad. Nothing else to say.
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Jul 26, 2011 - 03:13am PT
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Thanks, Nita.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 26, 2011 - 01:38pm PT
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Last Wednesday, Texas executed a man by lethal injection. The man, Mark Stroman, murdered two men in late 2001, and seriously injured a third. All three worked at convenience stores. Stroman was a white supremacist, and was enraged by the terrorist attacks of September 2001. He murdered Vasudev Patel, from India, and Waqar Hasan,a Pakistani immigrant. The third man, Rais Bhuiyan from Bangladesh, was shot in the face and lost an eye. Stroman thought that they were all Arabs and Muslims - none were Arab, and only two of them were Muslims.
You may ask why I mention this. The reason is that the survivor, Rais Bhuiyan, petitioned to have the execution stopped, saying that "Killing him is not the solution. He's learning from his mistake. If he's given a chance, he's able to reach out to others and spread that message to others." Bhuiyan said his religious beliefs as a Muslim required him to forgive the man.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/21/texas-executes-911-revenge-killer
In a similar vein, the sons of Mohandas Gandhi called for the death sentences of the conspirators who murdered their father to be commuted, as did his friend Jawaharlal Nehru, although to no avail.
There are other ways to react to violence and hatred than with more of the same. Certainly Norway is a fortunate country, perhaps better able to live its principles than most. It is materially wealthy, fairly homogenous, has strong values, and is a little protected from the world, by geography if nothing else. It would be all to easy after what has happened for it to strike out blindly. It would solve nothing, and no one would learn anything.
Yes, there are legitimate questions about whether the Norwegian police should have been more alert to terrorist threats, whether generally, from right-wing extremists, or otherwise. And in particular whether they knew of should have known of the threat from the murderer, and whether they could have reacted more effectively to the news of shootings at Utøya. That should come out in the eventual enquiry, which is likely to be thorough, and not tainted by politics. And perhaps there is a need for a constructive public debate there about immigration, values, and assimilation. Not simple subjects.
Could have, would have, should have speculation doesn't add to the discussion. Norway, and indeed most liberal democracies around the world, have rejected liberal gun laws. (Their police mostly aren't armed.) Setting aside the rhetoric, their view is that increased gun ownership destabilizes society, and leads to greater violence. Whichever is the chicken and whichever the egg, guns (especially handguns) and increased violence go together. Also, that ownership of handguns doesn't reduce crime, or allow the public to protect itself.
Imposing US beliefs and ideology on that discussion isn't productive, both due to it being hypothetical, and because Norway is different. It can be difficult to understand the perspectives of others, but try.
In the case of the massacre, would you have armed children and teenagers against an unimaginable threat, and would that have helped?
It is surprising that the murderer didn't kill himself, but I guess he was hoping to have a pulpit from which to preach hatred. Doesn't look like it will happen. It is also somewhat surprising that he wasn't killed by the police, given how heavily armed he was, that a special tactics group was sent, and that it would have been all too easy to dispense rough 'justice'. Perhaps he didn't resist?
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raymond phule
climber
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Jul 26, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
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It is surprising that the murderer didn't kill himself, but I guess he was hoping to have a pulpit from which to preach hatred. Doesn't look like it will happen. It is also somewhat surprising that he wasn't killed by the police, given how heavily armed he was, that a special tactics group was sent, and that it would have been all too easy to dispense rough 'justice'. Perhaps he didn't resist?
He didn't resist being captured.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 26, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
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Unnskyld if this has been discussed but I find it beyond my comprehension that
the police said it would have taken them longer to "requisition" a chopper than
to drive to Utøya. I know the crime rate is lower than low there but there
are emergencies other than crime that require a speedy response, especially
if the police have to requisition a chopper. That is living with one's
head in the sand.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 26, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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Lock him up for good.
Give him no voice.
Feed him with a stick.
Anders,
people actually still play Abba at "meetings"??
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 26, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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I like what Piton says. I wish him no contact with others so he'll never have a voice. A number for a name and... May he never have a grave stone, anything that will allow his name to exist, ever.
Anastasia
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 26, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
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I'm not going to suggest a link with those folks listed above, Dingus.
However, there is evidence that he was a fan of prominent American Islamophobes, notably blogger Pamela Geller (who does have some influence in American conservative circles):
http://www.slate.com/id/2299967/
Is Geller to blame? 99% no, but at the same time we cannot pretend that such rantings by her, and others, including presidential candidate Herman Cain, aren't at the very least a bit reckless.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
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I don't think its obvious at all. How about connecting the dots for me... from Newt to the dude in Norway.
I do so love your innocently disingenuous side...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 26, 2011 - 05:17pm PT
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Yesterday's memorial in Oslo. The street shown is Karl Johan, which is the main street leading from the central station, past the Storting (parliament) to the royal palace. The number of people present yesterday was as great or greater than any previous occasion, which is saying a lot - Karl Johan is the location of the annual national day festivities on May 17th, and also saw the Liberation Day parade on June 7th, 1945.
The condolences written in a book at the embassy in Washington, by a well-known American who writes left-handed. Perhaps he saw the post about it yesterday.
There will apparently be a national memorial early next week, followed by funerals for all those who died.
The murderer's motives may never be entirely clear, even to him. It seems safe to say that he drew inspiration from right-wing, xenophobic, racist, and "Christian" sources - often combined. Some of them in the US. Whether he had any real links with any of them, or accomplices, remains to be seen. Despite what our mothers told us, names and words can hurt others, sometimes badly. If his motives were in part based on the inflammatory and poisonous rhetoric of others, they share some of the blame. Freedom of speech is good, but doesn't extend to inciting others to hatred and violence, overtly or implicitly.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 26, 2011 - 05:25pm PT
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Another new low from Glen Beck. This idiot is making sure the the rest of the world knows how rediculous the far right is in the US. Or maybe the far right has disowned him and his nazi fetish already too.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43895169/ns/world_news-europe/
The people of Norway need our support you boneheads.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 26, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
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American Republican party = the party of fundamentalists...Bachman, Palin, evangelicals, Christian right voting block, KKK rejects who live in the South and to many other wackos to list....
No it's not. And you're using this as a political tool, dude. I'm a right-winger.
You're making ridiculous affiliations.
Kinda like me saying all people who like clean air are ELF supporters and need to be watched. Or Ted Kazinski. Or the SDS or Weather Underground.
Think, people. This guy was psychotic and is a murderer. Bachman, Palin, and even the idiots in the Westboro Church do not condone killing innocents. Don't try to draw ridiculous parallels and say it's a right-wing thing. It's an extremist thing. Kinda like Islam. Only a somewhat small minority are radical enough to kill civis for their cause. Not the whole religion.
Don't castigate the whole movement because of one or a few asshats! It's just illogical when you delve into it.
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