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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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#1 2nd.? After the black and before the rebranded 3.5's. Just not sure if there were subdivisions within the purples.
#2 Um....
#3
#4 bandito; Marshall Good-aka Jim Waugh?
Banditos were a zonnie phenom, but their presence extended behind the Zion curtain as well.
As late as '98? Steve Quinlan and I placed "No Gud" hangers on disappointment cliff, Indian creek on the routes Carob Corner and Ethnic Cleanser
#5 Amigos / Spain, or possibly droogs/CCCP?
Guess I'll quit while I'm behind
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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#3: CrackJack or Seismo?
#5: an Amigo from Spain?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
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As Silver posted, it is at least 2nd generation, because there was a widely available earlier generation with U cable stem. Whether there were additional, prior, rarer generations of the #4, I don't know, but I suspect that there may be, since you imply the answer is not obvious.
I actually have one of these. My partner bought it from some guys in Camp 4, May 1985, and then we took it up the Salathe'. As one of the sellers declared, "No more horror in offwidth!" I know the nationality of the guys who sold it to my partner. No marks of origin on the cam.
Mine has the same hole pattern, but there are 3 minor differences on mine:
1. the most central hole on each cam is drilled to a larger diameter
2. the trigger cables are longer (yours are swaged near the trigger bar, mine are swaged .5" from the pivot hole
3. the indent on the cam perimeter above the axle is more rounded on yours - the rounding diameter is smaller on mine
So perhaps mine is "2nd gen"? :-)
It has since been lent out and taken up the Salathe' many times - very handy in a couple of spots, like that last pitch. We call it a #7.5. It's been up other El Cap routes, too.
My partner's name for it is "The Secret Weapon". :-)
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Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:15pm PT
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Thinking about Climbing and History cause I am a total history person.
There is a Mountaineering/Climbing Museum and a Library. Probably the best and most inclusive in the WORLD.
The Bradford Washburn American Mountaineering Museum.
http://www.mountaineeringmuseum.org
History
Gear
Education
Displays
Art
Culture
Lets not forget the AAC Library. Huge
America Alpine Club Library.
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/p/library
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 15, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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The purple camalot is third gen- after the first generation Chouinard's and second generation BDs that had the one piece double stems (I mean the one piece plastic piece enclosing the u cable).
The "M. Gud" hangers seem a lot like the "No Gud" bandito hangers found throughout AZ. Are they different??
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2011 - 12:13pm PT
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HISTORY LESSON VOL 2 - SO FAR........
Unknown #1 - not telling......... :)
Unknown #2 - no guesses on this piton?
Unknown #3 - Jaybro first with Spain yes!, But what company and what gear name?
Unknown #4 - Acer is first with Bandito yes. Jaybro is first with Arizona (Zonnie), for the BONUS Jaybros answer Marshall Good Jim Waugh is correct. But to finalize the bonus, what was this hanger used for with Jim Waugh?
Unknown #5 - guesses but not correct answers yet........
Unknown #6 - no guesses yet..........
Unknown #7 - no guesses yet..........
Answers will be revealed Sunday night after dinner, AZ time.
Good luck with your answers!
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ncrockclimber
climber
NC
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Jul 16, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
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Marty.
Thanks for all the cool gear history. Unfortunately, I cannot add anything to the answers already given. What I can add is that the purple cam looks absolutely beautiful. Unless I am mistaken, it is 100% new and unused. Awesome. If you have a full set of that generation camalot in that condition that you are looking to get rid of, let me know! I can give them a good home!
Keep the great pics and gear history coming!
Edit to add -
While unpacking from my move from NC to Phoenix, I just cam across my like new copy of your Queen Creek Canyon guide book from '91. I purchased this in '93 to replace a copy of the guide that I lost, then ended up using my partners book. I don't think that this copy has ever been in a pack or outside. I even found the receipt from Summit Hut in the inside cover. I am excited to have my own little piece of history, and am looking forward to using it when I visit Queen Creek again this fall.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 16, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
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Marshall good rides again? Windy walks / troon mtn? McDowells, Scottsdale?
Other trivia I thought I saw Jim Waugh walk by the peace tree in Moab last may. Is that possible? Anyone know where he is now?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 16, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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Who needs all the history, trivia, and celebrity when we have Jefe's Prescott Pump article? !!!
LOL!
Thanks again Marty.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Jul 16, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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Jaybro: Jim's living in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Has been for a few years. He visited a while back and gave a slide show in Phx. Don't know if he was in Moab.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 16, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
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Thanks Manny,I'd heard he was in some exotic locale/ lifestyle, but couldn't remember the deal...
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 16, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
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Lots of questions!
Okay, a question for Marty.
Who made this cam? Pretty blatant Friend copy, sized larger.
No markings whatsoever. Dates from 1980s, more or less. I don't know the origin, it came to me via an old partner's rack, when he died.
Wingspan, open, 6 6/7". Fits cracks from 5.5 to 6.5".
No grooves or texture on the cams where they meet the rock, just smooth surface.
The cam's still going strong, comes on all my desert trips. Lifesaver for those pesky offwidths (see image upthread).
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 16, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
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Looks like a wired bliss though mine are stamped Wired Bliss.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
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crunch,
You have a Wired Bliss Buddie Cam #7. This was created by Steve Byrne in the mid 1980s. Steve created the company Wired Bliss and his name is also associated with the Lowe/Byrne ball nut sliders. Usually there is a small Wired Bliss stamp on the stem or on the edge of the cam lobes.
In the photo below, the left #7 cam is from Jim Bridwell, center #5 cam is from ebay, and right #7 is from Eric Kohl. The Bridwell cam is slightly different than the Kohl cam.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
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Jaybro, only two M.GUD hangers were created by the Banditos for Jim Waugh for a specific reason. Hmmmmmm.......
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 16, 2011 - 06:22pm PT
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A Buddie Cam; cool. Jardine started something with his "Friends" moniker: Buddy Cam, Amigo, Friend of a Friend, and of course Alien.
I looked again, all over, and there's no stamp or markings. It's clearly the same hole pattern as the Eric Kohl #7. It also used to be strung on the same electric blue-pink-magenta stripey webbing, too. I have the #5 somewhere, also.
Thanks!
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Jul 16, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
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On a more contemporary norte regarding Wired Bliss, I hear that they are coming out with a #5, #6 and #9 cam to extend the size of their current line. If the quality on these larger cams is anything like the other stuff they are making today, they are going to be great products.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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MACE STORIES-THIRD TIMES A CHARM
--FIRST CHARM--
For years, driving through Sedona Arizona I would stare at the Mace formation as friends and I were off to climb at the Overlook in Oak Creek Canyon. How could you not! The formation is every climbers inspiration, every artists inspiration, besides a Vortex. My friend Rich and I decided to take a four day vacation to Paradise Forks. The Forks is a paradise of tall basalt cracks located between Williams AZ and Flagstaff AZ. Rich didn't lead much so I cranked out everything I could. We were somewhat new climbers at the time just barely cranking through the 5.9 routes. The 5.8 and 5.9 cracks at the Pillow Wall were kicking my ass. The hand jams were for large hands, not for Marty hands. Other climbers were there climbing Pillow fight 5.10 and suggested, while chuckling, that I try this thin finger corner/face crack instead. I was dumb, not knowing what I was doing and nobody told me what the rating was. Somehow I cranked through the route and then found out it was the Davidson Dihedral 5.11+. Wow was I jazzed that I sent it! On our third day of the trip my muscles were spent! Paradise Forks has a way of doing that quickly, especially if you are leading all of the routes.
Rich and I went over to TL Bush 5.10 where I struggled through the layback corner which was awesome, but spent a long time leading the route. I was really getting tired. We rappelled back into the canyon for our final climb of the day, but still had one more day of our vacation. I decided to climb a route named Standard Forks 5.9, which is rated 5.8. As I was 1/3 of the way up the route, I noticed people were cheering me on and then were screaming as they jumped 50' off of the cliff into the pond below Waterslip Down. This screaming and big splashing noise was kinda getting to me. On my route, the cracks turned into flakes and the pro was getting desperate. I pulled out every Royal Robbins trick to pro the section I was stuck in. Yipe! I was thinking to myself, "Now I am going to die!" Jimmy Symans and Deidre Burton showed up across the canyon and started yelling at me, "Good Job Marty Good Job." I went from being a hero to totally mentally defeated. Jimmy was climbing (leading) Aqualung with Deidre, where Jimmy had a broken ankle fresh from doing the jump across on the Mace route the week before. I mean big wrapped ankle in a brace doing the jams and leading. I finished my route with a huge gasp of relief as I topped out, and then watched Jimmy floating up a few other routes.
Later we met up with Jimmy and told him that we were too tired for a third day at the Forks, so were were heading home. Jimmy suggested that we stop and climb the Original Route on the Mace on our way home. Why not! I was totally spent but Rich had this sudden burst of energy and agreed that he would lead the crux pitches on the Mace. The plan was set and it sounded like a great adventure. Before we left Jimmy warned us not to pro the limestone band at the top of pitch one. "A bird otherwise will hit you in the face." That seemed like a funny comment to me. We arrived early at the Mace and I got the first lead. At the pitch one limestone band there is a nice crack so I stuck a nut in it and suddenly, no kidding, got hit in the forehead by a swift. Damn near knocked me off of the ledge! Rich died laughing as I regained my senses. Unbelievable!!! I lead pitch 1, 3, 5 and Rich lead pitch 2 and 4. The 5.9+ crux pitch 4 was awesome! Pillars surround you which slowly disappear leaving you with an angled crack leading to a distant lose piton bolt. The old piton bolt can be pushed in and out 3/4" or so, but could not be removed. Scary but we clipped it! The jump across was totally awesome, what a great route!!!
The rappel off of the formation is from the lower pillar not the top of the Mace, that's why you have to jump back. There were two chains for the rappel so we fed the chains with the rope and both rappelled into the notch. There still is one more 100' rappel to go to get back to the ground. We tried to pull the rope but the rope was totally jammed! We tried the flick and pull tactics, both pulling on one line, and nothing was working. It was beginning to really suck, besides it was getting dark and cold.
We were stumped and did not know many tricks to climb ropes. We decided to jug the line via figure 8 belay and one arm lock offs. I created a prussic out of my shoe string and anchored one end of the rope to the ledge. We came up with the idea where I would pull up on my prussic, which was looped around my wrist, hang tightly like in a one arm pull up position, and then pull the slack out of my figure 8 device with the other arm, and yell to Rich "Lock Off." Rich would pull the rope into a fireman's belay, where I could rest. Repeat this process for 120' in an overhanging chimney. My muscles were beyond spent from four days of climbing, but I went into total survival mode and it had to be done! Let's just say, I was bleeding pretty good around the wrist by the time I reached the top. The rope appeared to run freely through the chains, but since the chains were small ovals, and the chains did not lay completely over the edge, the rope was getting trapped more and more as you pulled down onto it. That sucked! I will say again, THAT SUCKED! I added two 4' gold slings to the chain links then Rich and I were back at the car before you knew it.
A few days later, another team of climbers (I can't remember their names but mom and dad) did the Mace and saw the two gold slings and laughingly removed them, fed their ropes in the chains and fell into the same trap as Rich and I. They tugged, and tried everything but nothing was working, their ropes were jammed. So they decided to chew through the rope tails on each end, tying the remaining rope segments together to get down the remaining rappel. It took them 1 1/2 hours to tear WITH THEIR TEETH through a 10.2 diameter rope, and they both finished at the same time. They left the rope hanging and abandoned it.
A few days later my friend Doug climbed the Mace with a few Boy Scouts and came across the chewed ropes. He decided when seeing this that it may be time to rebolt the route. A few years later I went to Jacks Canyon for a one night camp climb and dash home trip. I just started the campfire and suddenly my friend Doug appeared. He was up there to meet the Scouts for a one day adventure the next day. Soon afterwards a mom and dad and two really cute young kids came to our fire and we decided to share the one fire. Somehow we got into a conversation about the Mace, and without even knowing each others story, we all shared the same adventure that single week on the Mace. They still had my gold slings, and Doug still had their chewed ropes.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
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MACE STORIES-THIRD TIMES A CHARM
--SECOND CHARM--
A year or so later, Doug called me and said that he wanted to create a Boy Scout adventure on the Mace. I told him that he was crazy as I explained on what he was up against. He decided to teach the Scouts how to jug up a rope, so some of the Scouts would climb the route, and some of the Scouts would jug up the two rappel pitches to all reach the summit. Doug always amazed me on when something needs to be done with the Scouts, it's gonna happen no matter the cost. I love Doug and his kid teaching abilities. Doug rented a scissor lift, and everybody met in his driveway at his Phoenix home. One by one the kids jugged their way up to the platform, and we raised and lowered the scissor lift I am sure over 100 times. It was a long but fun day!
I contacted many of my friends to help with this two day trip for the Scouts, and three day trip for me and my friends since we had to rig it. Doug wanted each pitch of the route to have two ropes. A jugging line for the climber and a safety belay rope in case they fell, ON EVERY PITCH! Did I mention that I thought Doug was crazy. I accepted my mission and Rich and I headed for Sedona to prep the Mace with many ropes. My friends were to arrive just a short while after us. Rich and I hauled 10 ropes up to the Mace and started rigging it but began to notice that my friends had not shown up. They actually did not show up until the next day, CRAP! I knew that Rich and I were in trouble on rigging the Mace being short handed. Two other climbers arrived from Canada while on a road trip in the Western USA. The Mace was on their list where I let them pass us on the pitch one ledge. I had with me my trusty John Fowler huge Magnus cam for the top of pitch two for the "wide crack move." The Canadian climber leader got to the wide crack move and began to notice the 20' runout he was encountering, and yelled down to me if he could borrow the large cam monster I was carrying.
I made a deal with him that he could borrow the cam if he dragged a line or two of mine to save me some time, over me leading the route and hauling. Thank God that these two guys showed up! Thank God! Their names were Yan Milot and Max Bertrand from St-Faustin Quebec. I later mailed them a bunch of my MK Guides as a thanks. Rich and I rigged as much of the Mace we could as we noticed that already Scouts were showing up for the adventure. Doug actually had the entire troop camp in the wash under the Mace. I thought that was a ballsy campsite since there are many million dollar houses all around us, and here we are having a huge camping outing with campfires in the middle of them. It is National Forrest land but still. The ranger even showed up that night exclaiming WTF, but there were no signs posted and the ranger seeing Doug insisting that he was not leaving, eventually backed down. The week following this event "No Camping" signs were posted in the wash area.
It was a cold evening which dropped down to 38 degrees or so. I was totally tired and had to get up early for this huge "Horse and Pony Show." I then noticed that while I was out rigging the route, my sleeping bag was sitting on my spare Camelbak where it drained half of the water into my bag. I still found a somewhat dry corner of the sleeping bag to curl into in my tent, and I was instantly sound asleep. I woke up to find that I was really not feeling well. I woke with a somewhat frozen bag and was hitting hyperthermia. I became quite scared of the situation since the entire outing was on my shoulders. As Doug and the Scouts were making me tea and anything they could to break my sickness, all of my other friends suddenly showed up. I am sure I fell into in tears of great joy seeing their faces. We came up with a game plan to use some of the experienced Scouts as belayers on the lower Mace pitches, my friends were on the upper pitches, summit, and rap notch, and I was ground control. I was really sick the whole day but made the best of it.
The Mace climb went as good as it could where 12 of the 28 kids actually reached the summit! The other kids were scared off, but all still climbed at least the first pitch of the Mace. Imagine you as a 13 year old kid showing up for your first climbing trip, and it is the Mace! Kinda like William "Dolt" Feuerer's first day being the Totem Pole, but he was older. At the end of the day, my friends and I pulled all of the ropes and gear and headed back to camp where we found a large pig on a spit that was cooking over a fire the whole day. There were so many parents helping with this outing all bringing home cooked food which filled the tables like a Kings feast. It was amazing!!! When I was in Boy Scouts, the Scouts had to provide for themselves. This was incredible! Now imagine how big our camp was with over 50 campers, tents etc. That Sedona ranger was surly pissed off! I drew this map of the Mace the following day when I arrived home.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 16, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
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MACE STORIES-THIRD TIMES A CHARM
--THIRD CHARM--
Doug eventually returned to the Mace and rebolted it, but he never told me. I ran into him shortly after at a convenience store, and he told me he had just threw out those junk hangers that morning in the trash. I was like "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Doug is more engineer than pro-climber so a mangled bolt to him is trash. I hastily rushed him to his house and the large city trash can was still sitting on the curb. I tipped it over, crawled into it, and shuffled through the trash finding two hangers. I kept searching for the third original hanger then he mentioned he didn't get the last one (step across). On this day the trash never smelled so good my friends! I looked at him and said "This is history my friend, HISTORY!!! I tipped the trash can back upright and just then the garbage truck turned the corner, and he is the first house on the street. One minute more and these historic bolts would have been lost forever. The pitch 4 crux piton bolt was even more exciting when I noticed it had TM stamped on the side, TM standing for TM Herbert! Amazingly the Star Dryvin nail bolt holding the piton was only 1 1/2" long, and it moved to the point that you could pull it out with your fingers, but it just would not come off of the rock. Doug said it came out with one small tug. Scary! The other hanger was homemade angled aluminum (airy crossover pitch two).
That just meant that there was one more original hanger on the route, the step across on pitch five. The following weekend I dragged my Bosch Bulldog drill and Bill Dacier up the mace to retrieve the major historical item. Bill was kinda intimidated of the route so I led all of the pitches. As I was climbing, I was totally filled with excitement to have the whole set of original bolts from the Mace. First ascent of the Original Route was by TM Herbert, Bob Kamps and Dave Rearick in April 1957, possibly on Easter Day. Yvon Chouinard would have been climbing the route also, but chose to go to church instead. When I topped out on pitch four I instantly fell into shock. The step across hanger was replaced, and the original homemade aluminum hanger was gone! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I mean I was almost in tears!
Bill and I did the step across move and on to the main summit where I got to see Doug's new summit register. Doug installed on the Mace, 3/4" glue-in lifting eye bolts for the main belays and rappels, and the main summit register. He mentioned he spent a big coin to have it created out of stainless steel, but it should last forever. He inscribed all of his kids names onto it which are written at the base of the register. I noticed written in the summit ledger that one of the last people up on the Mace was Jeff Achey, an editor for Climbing Magazine. Climbing Magazine was shooting photos for their next Mag #186 June 1999 Flagstaff AZ issue, and Jeff and crew had just climbed the Mace. I called Jeff, who bumped me back to John Burcham, which led to Albert Newman, who had the Historical relic in his tool box. The set was once again back together!
A year later I visited the legendary Tom Taber, and looked at his great collection of climbing gear. Tom Taber has many first ascents in Arizona, which many are the majority of the routes at the Overlook. I was able to borrow only a few pieces of his gear even though I gave him my best begging performance. Tom suddenly whipped out two pitons, which were the original pitons used on the second rappel out of the notch on the Mace. This was an amazing find! Now all 5 original climbing anchors which were used to climb the Mace in 1957, are all back together and preserved.
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