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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 29, 2013 - 09:05pm PT
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In the end the quality of the route - and the bolting - are more important than the style of the FA.
Different people see it differently I guess. If I had a choice I would bolt ground up from stances/hooks. TRing, than rapping and drilling kills the adventure factor. I don't even think there is a need to bolt if you can do that. Fun in climbing (for me)is in adventure of it. Climb up a system you never done and try to do it clean if it's at your limit. If I climb on a TR, it is not to get the route dialed but to learn some new technique/work out.
I see why some people feel the need to rap bolt on 5.12s etc (when there are no rest stances), or if they are just trying to create the best route possible. It's whatever gives you the fix you need/personal preference. Climbing is fun because you can have different approach for different routes/goals...
PS: opinion of a dude who never placed any bolts ever...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 29, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
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the simple fact is that by our rules the FA owns the route for eternity. that is a Huge fcking responsibility if you have a decent concience. Whatever you do make it the best route possible and please fix your mistakes before calling it finished.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 29, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
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I don't see a huge difference between bolting on hooks or on rappel - they're both aid climbing...
The point which I tried to make above is that if you are going to do a good job setting a free climb on lead, whether from stances or hooks but on lead, it's a bad idea to use the hooks to make upward progress. This is when the leader loses track of the best clipping oportunities etc. Best to free climb, and use the hooks as stopping points to place a bolt in the right place. Or arrive at a stance. Of course the hook is a point of aid, but this can be serious and challenging work.
I see why some people feel the need to rap bolt on 5.12s etc...
I don't think the number grade defines what is the right way to go. I've done 5.12s (maybe a .13 depending who you ask) all on lead, but they are all routes where the ground up option was feasable and great fun ("like fun only different...")
Whatever you do make it the best route possible and please fix your mistakes before calling it finished... Yep. Been there done that. My route Seamstress up at Courtright was a death defying stunt on the first ascent. The next year I went back for a repeat with several very good climbers. We all agreed on the spot to add two bolts to the upper section to avoid decking from 5.11+ climbing. While my friends watched I rapped in and placed the bolts. I had already led the thing twice and had nothing to prove - but it was obviously the right thing to do.
that is a Huge fcking responsibility if you have a decent concience You raise an interesting question. So, is the B&Y not responsible? I think the responsibility lies with the climber who decides to do the route, FA or repeat. How about Southern Belle, testpiece or reckless endangerment? And if the FA really owns the route for eternity then there's a bunch of bolted anchors which need to come off of Astroman... Its all situational really.
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Scott Thelen
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Mar 29, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 29, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
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I can't comment on the BY. never even seen it. a good rule of thumb is to make climbs that are fun and that YOU want to repete. If you don't even like your own climb enough to repete it then maybe its a bit effed up. Not a big deal in places with thousands of climbs but maybe a real shame in a place with limited resorces.
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shakin' man
Trad climber
california
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Mar 30, 2013 - 12:08am PT
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Kris, we headed over to Voyager last July to hike to the top. Eve, Herb and I wondered how hard it was now. Got in a couple of ground-ups on the backside of Power Dome sans Eve, I would say Herb has done a few over the years.
I think this is it:
Fun hike, especially all the erratic boulders at the base.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Mar 30, 2013 - 12:57am PT
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You know what's funny about this. It's just us. The same ole 7 or 8 of us saying mostly the same thing. LOL
I'm officially a curmudgeon. LOL
Well, we can always hope some new climber will stumble upon this thread and maybe post up that they learned something new about the perspective of ethics (and style) from the last few posts here.
Urmas, I learned recently about a few more folks that would only use the hook AFTER they free climbed the move. Showing that the move was free, but the addition of the protection via a hook did not taint the idea that no upward progress be made by the artificial use of aid.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2013 - 01:53am PT
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I hate using hooks....
...but I might sling the drill bit if I'm feeling insecure.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Mar 30, 2013 - 10:53am PT
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ksolem and mungeclimber, Points taken, but it's still an aid ascent until it's redpointed.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 30, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
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Urmas I said that in my first post. Gotta red point...
Shakin' Man, that's seamstress. Prolly 12b realistically. Here I'm drilling the 4th (and last on the fa) bolt from a hook in 1989. Anyone who thinks that free climbing 5.12, setting that marginal hook and drilling is the same as rapping in is, well, I've met Urmas and I don't want to be snarky but...
I'm gonna die.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 30, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
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Nothing like having some sport climber tell you that your effort on the FA doesn't matter! LOL
You take away from the climbing experience what you put into it.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Mar 30, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
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I'm really not trying to pick a fight here. But I would like to point out that in MY first post, I said that hooking is more adventurous for the first ascentionist than rappelling. It seems you are deliberately overlooking that comment. My point was not in any way intended to compare the relative experiences of the FA team, Rapping vs hooking. I was just making the obvious (to me)observation that viewed from ten years down the line, a route that was done top down, or ground up using hooks will be viewed about the same, in terms of ethics - not style. I have done, and continue to do routes both ways, as well as ground up trad, and stance bolted. I know the differences.
Take the Bachar-Yerian for example. It was done in a very bold style. That's admirable, in fact that's largely why it's the test piece it is. Ethically, though, some bolts were installed using direct aid. Whether it's dicey aid, as in hooking, or bomber aid, as in rappelling, it's still aid. I'm not suggesting it could have been done any other way.
My point is simply that I see a greater distinction between a ground up onsight free ascent and an aid ascent, than I do among various styles of aid ascents (rapping vs hooking).
Steve, I wonder if your irony went over some heads!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 30, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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I'm really not trying to pick a fight here...
Me neither. Fighting over climbing style and ethics is so 35 years ago...
I'm just having an OT chat with climbers about climbing on a political forum.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Mar 30, 2013 - 05:09pm PT
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No argument there, Ron!
And ksolem, I fully respect your experience, and can only imagine 5.12 climbing leading to a marginal hook placement!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 30, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
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Sorry I'm going OT for a minute... Urmas, I'll never forget the last time we crossed paths. I'm sure the day was less memorable for you. It was late summer 2004 at the Dike Wall. I did that 11a thing that goes up kind of a rib/dike right of the nose, you said something complimentary to me when i came down. But here's why I remember this day. The next thing I did was get on that 11b rig that goes up to a big undercling flake. I've always liked this climb but on this day it didn't like me, and somehow I ended up tearing my right shoulder badly which led to surgery and many months of rehab (it's fine now.)
I remember that some people on the ground heard the crunch when that shoulder blew. Someone said "What was that!?" Yuck.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 30, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
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Ksolem, do you think you could have done something differently to avoid this injury? Like did you forget to stretch that day, or did some weird motion on the climb, or had any other trigger? Injuries suck.
After my first summer of hiking/mountaineering (in 2010) I developed a knee problem. Probably due to boulder hopping with a heavy pack, or doing full 'Sierra Challenge' that year. Not sure. Had to stop running completely. Still could hike, but couldn't run more than half a mile or so. So about 4 month ago I tried to resume running little by little. Worked my way up to running 8+ miles finally. Feels good. Getting better running shoes might of helped too..
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 30, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
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Ksolem, do you think you could have done something differently to avoid this injury?
Nothing against Yoga per se, but leading up to this I was led toward shoulder hyper-mobility by a particular teacher. After the injury I began a regular Pilates practice first for rehab, now as a profession. It became apparent to me during and after rehab that I had made a bad trade of mobility for stability. Of course natural range of motion is good but I went too far. If I knew then what I know now it would never have happened.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Mar 30, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
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Tradman;
"URMAS, If you have ever had a hook pop on you, you would know the difference;)"
I was belaying Urmas on the first pitch of Mescalito. He had to do a couple of hook moves and left the first one for pro or hadn't grabbed it yet, when the hook he was on blew. The hook he left caught his fall, albeit the hook got straightened out to 45 degrees. I guess he does know what it feels like.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 30, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
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Well then he must have some peculer rappeling habbits if he thinks rapping is the same as hooking;)
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 30, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
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It became apparent to me during and after rehab that I had made a bad trade of mobility for stability.
Are you saying too much stretching in the upper extremities is not always smart? Any particular exercises you would recommend that could help with stability in that region?
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