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Andy KP
climber
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The problem with conspiracy is that it actually helps those who we are led to believe conspired against us. 99% of what fuels these things is human fallibility, in that people f*#k up before and after an event and then try and cover themselves. What happens is that people see people covering up (JFK being a prime example), and assume it's something far more sinister then an unread e-mail, a forgotten command, or suspect you lost in traffic. Once the conspiracy grows it actually covers these mistakes because 70% of people don't believe the outlandish stories (UFO's in area 51 - rather then a max 6 spy plain) and stick with the version of the truth put out by those who f*#ked up (that's why governments don’t like enquires, or those that expose the f*#k ups of others), while the other 30% DON'T want to believe that it comes down to people didn't do there job correctly. The conspiracy gives people far more credit then they deserve (UFO cover ups, Pearl harbour, holocaust fabrication). I suspect that many of the people who believe in such things are also atheists, and they're replacing one faith with something else, after all doesn’t it make our hum drum lives a lot more exciting if these things are going on.
The truth is scary, but it's not hidden (just read some history books), the problem is is that no one's really that bothered about the past - after all what can you do about it. Finding out about what goverments did (and do) makes you feel mad, crazy and impottent. A million people march on London to stop the war in Iraq with no effect whatsover - no wonder people start blowing up things up! World Politics and history are complex and lifes too busy to get involved (that's why the middle class have tiem to plan revelutions) but I do believe that 9/11 consiracys, WMD, gay marriages and bird flu show us who the real bad guys are...the media. Over throw them first and the world would be a better place.
Rant over
Andy (transmitting from a freemason temple in Sheffield)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Lois, I'm not answering your question or addressing anything you say until you answer the question I'm about to post of the fifth time.
Also for the one who says that things don't remain hidden but come out in history, answer me this
Who (exactly with some evidence) burned the German Reichstag (parlement) building that helped Hitler consolidate power? This was the 9-11 type event that was just as important in world history as 9-11. Who really did it? Who did the German people think did it at the time?
I'm going to have to add the above question to the ones below. PROVE YOU ARE NOT A SHEEP BY ANSWERING THESE SHORT QUESTIONS EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO ADMIT YOU'D BUY THE PARTY LINE.
(ps Northwoods was not related to the Bag of Pigs directly)
THE US GOVERNMENT HAS ACTUALLY PLANNED TERRORIST ATTACKS AGAINST THE US. It wasn't during a GOP administration either. Sh#t happens. check out
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html
"Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."
Let say that Kennedy didn't 86 the plan which was signed off on by the whole Joint Chiefs, and a round of violent terrorist attacks were pulled off by the Kennedy Government on Americans.
This very nearly happened . Ask yourself this question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
We believe what we want to believe. If something is too far out of our worldview and experience, our mind glances right over it.
If you can at least answer my question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
You will at least prove your mind can go there
peace
karl
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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I have no comments about the insanity of this particular conspiracy theory other than too many people have too much time on their hands and too much loathing of Bush to maintain healthy minds. Further, if there was any hint of truth to this nonsense, why don't the anti-Bush papers such as the NY Times et al jump on this issue?
Now, why I'm posting, a close friend and climbing partner of mine contacted a friend of his in New York who was "in the know" about the construction of the Twin Towers. He inquired about the failure of the metal beams supporting the towers. His friend related the failure of the beams to two things: extraordinary heat generated by the jet fuel and lack of asbestos insulation due to new regulations vis a vis the threat of it being a carcinogen. Either there was no insulation around the beams or what was used was inferior to asbestos. Remember, I got this second hand; it does sound quite plausible though.
Now the pro-conspiracy nuts can come out of their cages and start bouncing off the walls again.
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Karl - I had not heard of the Northwoods plan until you brought it up. I ordered up a few books from the library to read up on the subject. Reading the photo copies from the link you listed turned my stomach.
True that those plans were not acted upon, but that so completely misses the point. People in charge were committed to these ideas that I would simply assume to be unthinkable.
So to answer Karl's question - it makes me angry that a lunatic that could put this policy forward was Chief of Staff. Thankfully Macnamara marginalized him and fought to keep us out of Cuba... and most likely WWIII.
The thread that runs through Northwoods all the way to Iraq is that people in power wanted a policy put in place - and were willing to lie to the public in order to get that policy inacted.
Whether or not they call it a "lie" is besides the point. They'll have lawyer folks like John Yoo to back/create their legal arguements - and they will believe that what they are doing is right and true.
And that's how things like "the torture question" go from a horrible nightmare to a reality. The US of A sends folks to be tortured / water boarded / boiled alive to get information out of them. Things that you or I would be sentenced to life for are done under the USA's policies as completely routine and acceptable.
And the folks at the top don't see it as a problem - they see it as a legal policy. And the words "US Interest in the Region" are vast and painful because ultimately we want what they have.
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Ouch!
climber
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Ragmop, you and your pals better cool it before you get Werner riled up again. He will skin your little cornbread ass again.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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426,
What's your fixation with this Jeff Gannon character? (not that there's anything wrong with that)
I always thought Monica Lewinsky was kinda cute (if a bit chunky), but I don't have any pictures of her laying around the house.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Raj?
D'you hold a scholarly degree in the art of rhetoric? hmmmmm?
Nice post.
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Ouch!
climber
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I think Happie was trying to say something nice to you, Ragmop. Like you are a skilled confabulating bullshitter.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I meant it as an honest compliment.
Edit....I wish I was smart enough to know if you had answered my question by that comment.....
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Ouch!
climber
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LOL! Ramjet, don't go getting all serious and articulate on me.
I forgot the tricycle business. Did that mess up your day? You seemed to pitch quite a hissyfit as I recall.
I like most everyone. The ones I don't like, I have nothing to do with or say anything about. I sure as hell wouldn't waste time messing up their pictures.
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Ouch!
climber
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But it is what we have of you, so to us, it is you. What does it matter?
edit...work and play are different but the same?
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WBraun
climber
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Whoa now which rajmit are we now seeing here? Is this the real MIT rajmit? It sure sounds like it, but who are those goofy guys in those other threads posing as you? Or is that the goofy side of you that you project when you are feeling goofy?
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WBraun
climber
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"I want to have my very own show on the Fox-aganda Network."
You will get it for sure if you keep it up and I'll make sure I watch the fun.
Now back to WTF happened on that little Island (we now call NYC) that our govt. weaseled out of those "Indians" a while back, maybe some guys you knew?
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WBraun
climber
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Quit goofing around and get back to work with a diatribe explaining everthing we need to know about "What Actually Happened".
You're at MIT so get in the lab and start figuring this sh-it out. I'm losing my faith in smart guys like you.
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WBraun
climber
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All right, good! Now where is the f*#king closed captioning option? :-)
Healyje, TGT, Lois and some others are not going to like this one.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I think Lois must be having dinner. It's about suppertime in this time zone.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes Raj. thanks for your input on this
They said The towers are 1368 feet tall, that goes up to Dolt Tower on the Nose. The next one they build in it's place they better leave a hand crack going up the side of it, so that people can climb it that need to relieve their stress of living in that god forsaken urban jungle.
I will write our nice govt. representatives with this nice proposal.
Maybe fattrad can swing some leverage?
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Ouch!
climber
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OK Ramjet, cut the crap. If that picture ain't you, then put a real one on so we can mess you up.
Lois is having supper of hog jowls, turnip greens, and blackeyed peas for New Years. It brings you good luck.
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WBraun
climber
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Rajmit that is pure phucking speculation, there's structural engineering guys and pyro guys that'll say different.
Now who's right?
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WBraun
climber
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Now just see ......
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