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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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Nice write up minerals!
I have been thinking on the wrench idea. I got a quick quote from an out fit for 12 gauge (0.104” nominal thickness) stamped wrench sets. We can make them thicker if need be. I will mic mine tonight.
Should we include these or would people prefer to use their own?
I made a decision last night to go ahead with with it so spread the word.
Now that it is closer to x-mas, it will most likely start after the first of the year.
There is still a lot of stuff to sort out, but the collet holders and nuts can start to be made.
Luke
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 21, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
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Thanks for your vote of confidence, Deucey! You DO know where I learned all this stuff, right? :)
You came up with a pretty darn cool design with the Hurricane, and short of defying the laws of physics, I don’t think there’s a whole lot that we can do to improve it, if much of anything. I love my Hurricanes.
And as far as machining goes, I’m better off leaving that to these guys who really know what they are doing!
Luke, glad to hear of your decision! WooHoo!!! Sweet! I’ve been hoping that someone would take on this project for a while now.
My calipers are in storage but I’ll have to grab ‘em and check the thickness of the two 7/8” wrenches.
It seems like providing the wrenches with the holder would be good. Some people might have a hard time finding the appropriate wrenches. And if they can find additional wrenches that work better, then all the better.
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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Dec 21, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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Luke, someone earlier in the thread mentioned the commonality of a BD nut tool. A nut tool makes a nice lever arm and is very light. If there were a way to use it in opposition to the handle for tightening instead of around the axis
You're on a roll with this stuff lately. Cool to see the process.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 21, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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Quoting to keep from confusing things further... :-)
Aric, I’m not sure I completely follow what you are saying. With stuck bit problems that arise from time to time when using dull bits, as described above, I think it’s good that the collet grab as much of the bit as possible so that the bit is less likely to spin in the holder should a wrench be needed to torque a stuck bit loose. Does that make sense, or am I on a different page?
Sorry for the poor explanation. What I was trying to get at is that because the bolt bears directly on the end of the drill, hammering on it shouldn't put much force on the collet and therefore I think the tenancy to loosen due to repeatedly setting the collet deeper upon impact and then popping free again afterwards should be diminished. But to be honest I don't know if that would even be an issue with the ER series collets due to the shallower taper (it might actually stay locked in the deeper position).
With your drill holder design, a pre-made cable wrist-loop could be swapped out for a damaged one, simply by removing the grade-8 bolt, switching the wrist-loops, and then replacing the grade 8-bolt. To replace a damaged wrist-loop on a Hurricane, a swager setup is needed.
I intended for the bolt to be locked in place permanently with loctite, so no, not really. But if you were to use a tag hole washer around the smaller section it would be dead easy to thread a new piece of cord or wire through it.
If there are no wrench flats on the holder itself, then one wrench is used on the hex end of the grade-8 bolt and one on the collet nut, in order to tighten the collet, correct?
Yup. My thought there being a short bar with the hex milled into the middle attached to the leash. In use you'd center it in your palm, insert the drill and hold both with one hand while fiddling with the wrench on the other end. The new version I'm drawing up makes this even easier.
Does the grade-8 bolt need to be doused in red loctite to prevent it from loosening before the collet nut loosens, when trying to remove a drill bit? If the collet nut is tighter than the grade-8 bolt, then the bolt will loosen before the collet nut loosens, meaning that you can’t get the bit out of the holder. Yes? No?
With the proper loctite the bolt will become permanently attached to the shank, and given the square inches of surface area made available by the threading there's no way it'll come loose no matter what you do (short of a blowtorch, chemicals and/or explosives).
In any event I've found some very nice upgrades to this design (lighter, replaceable striking surface and only requiring one wrench) and will post some pics once I get it put together (material should be here tomorrow and I'll have some free time in the afternoon to build it).
-aric.
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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Can't wait to see it Aric. I love this design thing we have going here on the side.
Still a lot of factors, depends on the grips, shipping charges, wrist loop, ( Good thing the the shop doing this has the material and heat treatment in house.)
I'll keep updating this thread as it moves along and progress is made.
A rough guess will be closer to $120 complete. I bet these will fit into a Flat rate USPS Box.
Thanks
Luke
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 21, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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Hoping you saw it that way, Luke... For a while here I felt like it might look like I'm trying to hijack your project. I can assure you I'm not; you just got me thinking about it and I love prototyping stuff. :-)
-a.
EDIT- BTW, I don't suppose you considered McMaster #97045K23 for the grips (sorry, but I've never been able to figure out how to link to parts on their site. Even their helpdesk people couldn't tell me how to do it. Apparently it's all done by Java or somesuch, which makes linking difficult.).
</tangent>
Anyway, they're a heavy duty vinyl grip with a flange, and look a lot like MotoX grips. They'd require a bit of a design change to use given that they're sized for 7/8" OD, but at $2 a pop it might be worth it. They only come in 6packs, so if you want one to play with give a holler (should be here next week; they didn't have it in stock at my local warehouse and had to ship from Chicago).
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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Aric,
I have been waiting 2 weeks almost for them to arrive! (from Mcmaster-Carr).
I wonder if the epoxy would fill in the gap.
No worries on the thread drift. I like it. I've prototyping some other cool stuff as well.
Luke
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 21, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Got other things, do ya? Perhaps we should continue our earlier offline discussion then... I've got a couple m'self and some interesting news to boot. Will drop you an email shortly.
EDIT- Waiting 2 weeks for those grips? Ha! I just got an email that mine have shipped already.... Nah-nah... :-P ;-)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 21, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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Hey Aric, thanks for clarifying. I didn’t realize at first that “collet chuck shank” refers to the actual holder itself. Duh, on my part. Sorry. I understand now.
I’m interested to see what you come up with next. Sounds like something that will be fun to check out. And, whatever else you have going too. The replaceable striking surface deal seems like a good idea, based on what Luke said about the grade-8 bolt.
Yeah, hope I’m not cluttering things up here with too many photos, Luke. Cheers to your project!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 21, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Ok, baby's asleep and my wife's not back from her holiday party yet so here's a sectioned view of what I have in mind... (Please pardon my not having modeled the ER locknut. I'd much rather sit here enjoying my beer than model all the funky things they have to do to make the self-release lip on the ER locknut work. :-) )
The basic premise I'm working from is to convert Duece's Hurricane design to use ER rather than DA collets while at the same time minimizing weight in comparison to the obvious choice of an off-the-shelf Straight Shank ER Collet Chuck. I also had two additional goals, which were elimination of one of the two wrenches needed to change bits and making the striking surface replaceable.
The main part of the assembly is the shank, which is hardened stainless and has a socket machined to accept an ER16 collet and has a 0.500" shaft (in the prototypes I'll be making the shank will be two pieces {socket and shaft} to reduce the amount of machining needed, but ideally they would be made from a single piece of material). The small end of the shank is threaded to accept the striking piece, which bottoms out on the end of the shank and is made from some yet-undetermined material suitable for such an application. Immediately underneath the striking piece is a keyed aluminum bar (cross piece) that bears upon flats machined on the shank and serves as a wrench during tightening/loosening of the locknut. Under the cross piece is the grip/sleeve assembly, which consists of a vinyl grip epoxied to an aluminum sleeve, which is in turn a press fit/epoxied to the main shank (the use of a non-load bearing aluminum sleeve under the grip should result in a fair weight savings in comparison to the original design due to the smaller amount of steel used).
If you look closely there is a step on the large end of the shank, which is a loose fit for the steel tag hole washer to which the leash/cord is attached. This step is both smaller diameter and wider than the washer, so the washer should be able to rotate freely no matter how tightly the striking piece is tightened. My main reasons for changing this part of the Hurricane design is to move the leash connection away from an area where it is likely to become damaged and to allow the use of cord rather than a swaged cable loop.
In case it is not readily apparent, the flats on the large diameter of the shank are intended for use when replacing the striking piece. The reason for this is concern about galling on the threads due to repeated hammer blows (I'm not sure if anti-seize or loctite would be a better option for the threads) and mushrooming of the end of the small diameter of the shaft causing the the striking piece to require more force to to remove than the cross piece is capable of providing.
Given that the leash is attached at the collet end of the drill, attaching the locknut wrench to the leash would make it not only convenient, but permanently attached as well.
Also of note is that this general design would work equally as well with the shank machined for a DA collet, depending on whichever flavor of collet you happen to be a fan of.
Ok, Sharon just got home so I gotta run.... Happy holidays to all in case I don't get back here until next week.
(Note- there were more than a couple edits for grammar/readability, so if you caught this early on it's been changed a bit)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 21, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Excellent! Super cool! Nice diagram too!
Hmmmm... Gotta give this some thought...
Nice work, Aric!
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 21, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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Thanks Minerals. Can't take credit for the diagram though; it's simply a sectioned SolidWorks assembly that took me all of 5 minutes to put together. Great software, but hideously expensive.
One thing I neglected to mention is that the socket for the collet has a hard stop at the end, which provides a solid connection between the shaft and drill for increased efficiency while hammering (and hopefully less tenancy for loosening of the nut/collet).
-a.
EDIT- Well, it took 5 minutes to put together the diagram once I finished creating all the individual part models. That took a bit more than 5 minutes... :-)
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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Aric,
Pretty slick. Nice work man. I wish I was more computer savvy. All my stuff is sketched on napkins and legal pads
Luke
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 21, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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Heh... Didn't show you my notebook, did I? Practically indecipherable chickenscratch. :-)
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 21, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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One other comment... It is my intent that the cross piece be somewhat loose in fit axially; e.g. the striking piece does not tighten down on it but rather bottoms out on the end of the shank. The reason for this is that this direct connection between the striking piece and shank will transmit the force to the cutting edge much, much better than the striking piece bearing on the cross piece bearing the the two small flats on the shank could ever hope to do.
(BIG EDIT now that I got myself straightened out)
Ignore all the earlier edits re: issues with the above. This works because the sleeve is press fit/epoxied to the shank, so there is no need for the striking piece/crossbar to bear on it to hold it in place. Sorry, too many iterations of this design today and I'm starting to lose track of what changed and why.
(/bid edit)
Oh, and @Minerals- giving this design some thought is a good plan... The only hole I ever drilled by hand was through a cinder block wall for a 4" dryer exhaust and it went exceedingly poorly. That said, I was using a 1" dia chisel and no hammer, and there was only a 3.5" gap between the webs of the blocks. I spent 2 days on it before calling someone in, who pulled out his core drill and was done in 15 minutes. Ah, to be young and stupid.... :-)
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MOsucks
Mountain climber
Generally MO but I get out of here every chance
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Dec 22, 2010 - 01:32am PT
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Man do I have some reading to catch up on. You could count me in on one. What material/ heat treat condition are you looking to use? Metallurgist in me...
Aric heat treat ovens are easy to make, mine runs on 120V 13amp. K type thermocouple and temp controller, just set it and you are ready to go an hour later. Not accurate enough for aluminum aging though.
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2010 - 02:08am PT
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We are going to go with 17-4 ph Stainless treated to H900. Although there has been some talk about having a few made from Titanium as well...Maybe a limited batch...I am not sure though..I would hate to see what the cost would be.
Luke
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 22, 2010 - 08:35am PT
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@MOsucks- Haven't seen you around in ages! Still playing around with making pitons? You're out of school at this point, aren't you? If so, congrats!
And actually, you're just the guy I need at the moment.... I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to use for the striking surface on my design. High yield strength and tough, no problem. But high yield strength, tough and non-workhardening? No idea. The non-workhardening bit rules out most if not all of the stainless options, doesn't it? Titanium strikes me as not having a high enough yield, but I seem to recall it being workhardening anyway. I guess that leaves us with something like 4140 or tool steel?
Oh, and you're right- building the oven is a no brainer and every couple months I get motivated enough to check Craigslist for refractory bricks. But then laziness sets in and I don't actually go and get them. :-(
EDIT- Actually, it looks like Theron spec'd 4340 @ HRC46-48 for the D5 hammers, so it would probably work just fine for the striking face if dropped down a bit to something like HRC35-40. Unless you have another suggestion I think that's the way I'll go with it.
Guess I better get around to building that oven, huh? :-)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 22, 2010 - 10:11am PT
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If you make any out of Ti, count me in for one.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 22, 2010 - 10:17am PT
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Hey Luke- If you're still waiting on those grips from McMaster you may want to give them a call. Seems they are in stock in Chicago (I have the UPS tracking number for the ones I ordered yesterday), so there's no reason for them to be weeks overdue for you.
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