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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:31am PT
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Some of you f*#kers do not realize the true scope of things.
I would say the same thing about you Blue. And I'm pretty certain that after serving in Korea during the Korean war, serving 3 tours in Nam, serving in Military Intelligence and the Military Police and a front line Army unity, then retiring early because his wife was ill and he wanted to take care of her, even though he was on the fast track to be a 4 star general, that my landlord understands the true scope of things. The man is about as bad ass as they come. I have a deep respect for him and for his opinion. Not many men would give up such a career to take care of their wife.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:32am PT
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You 2 idiots don't do yourselves any intellectual favors.
But I still love ya, even though Walleye is kinda weird. Have ever met you, dude?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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John, Afghanistan was rigteous. Iraq was debatable...
Need more?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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Iraq was debatable...
More like .. debacle.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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Matt, my probem is that some good men be tossed aside to cover for intel f-ups. I know you'd agree with me here.
I think Behennea is getting sold out. This is what happens in long wars. And it ain't right. People like us with the internet need to keep our eye s open.
But Wiki, tHAT'S sedition, dude....
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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both theatres are debacles.
Yes.. I think that we should have gone into Afghanistan and bombed the sh#t out of Al Queda, then gotten out immediately. 6 months to a year tops. Otherwise we are wallowing in a country that has sucked the life out of invaders for thousands of years. Pure foolishness.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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Bleuy....
Your idiot pal WAS an "intel f*#kup"....
That's entirely possible......
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:56am PT
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The only prollem is, why be a patsy for 35 years? WHat's the pay off??
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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AC, i got a remote trail down in devils canyon that passes by about three bone piles per mile,
tell you what,
you walk that trail at night with a rump roast in your back pack, real slow like, from 10 til 6, by yourself, no light, and i will buy you a case of pbr, if you come out alive.
friend saw a 250 pounder near lake almanor last month.
thats a big kitty,
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 02:01am PT
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This is the Age Of Aquarious!!!!!!!
Hey!!! Did you just cut my hair!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 29, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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In Wawona.. Yes. LOL..
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Nov 29, 2010 - 02:47am PT
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It is definitely a great place.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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So, I posted earlier that I thought our intellegence officials would not pass up the chance to "out" some opponent that they want offed by the bad guys...as in make up some fake sh#t that implicates them and gets them snuffed. Here's Ackmenonutjob's take on it copied verbatum from Al's Jissum newz: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/11/20101129131235776706.html
He says that we are 100% responsible for the Wikileaks releases. US -our intellegece is releasing this stuff to wikileaks. Remember, they are the only country to have taken over and reviewed EVERY piece of data (that wasn't burned up) from one of our embassys in modern times. They published all of our super secret CIA intelligence and diplomatic info they recovered in a book that was available in every country but banned in this one. In fact, it's been claimed that nutjob himself was in our embassy in the 1979 revolution/Khomeni takeover. Interesting point of view from one who would better know what our intelligence community could and would do. He knows this better than any of us for sure.
Meanwhile, Ahmadinejad, said the US government had orchestrated the release of thousands of US diplomatic cables by Wikileaks to pursue its "political goals".
According to the cables released on Sunday, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf leaders repeatedly urged the US to attack Iran to destroy its nuclear program.
"We don't give any value to these documents," Ahmadinejad told a news conference in Tehran, Iran's capital. It's without legal value. Iran and regional states are friends. Such acts of mischief have no impact on relations between nations," Ahmadinejad said.
"These documents are prepared and released by the US government in a planned manner and in pursuance of an aim. It is part of intelligence warfare and will not have their desired political impact," he said.
I added the bold..... Interesting.
..anyway, back to your argument about sh#t that doesn't matter....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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Whats yer point Crowley?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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Google "Operation Mockingbird", become well read and then re-read those headlines. Not saying that the CIA doesn't do some couragous and brave things. However, they have close to an unlimited budget and do a lot of underhanded manipulation of what you think via the media.
Could not the wikileaks have originated within the US intelligence community, as Ackmenonutjob says, and is a tool of the US Gov't?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 29, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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so everybody hates iran, no duh, been like that for years,
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Slym
Ice climber
East Bay, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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it may not be so much a case of content, but how it was presented....
Elaborate?
Also, I am kind of shocked (ok, not really) by the polarization seen here.
Wikileaks' goal is transparency in policy. That's the basic gist of things. By exposing what "really" goes on, the organization is attempting to disrupt the normal balance of things, and the recently released "cables" did just that. Here's the best simpleton explanation:
In international politics maintaining face (i.e. the facade of strength, competence, potency, capability, and other qualities which would commonly be called "manly") is absolutely essential and of utmost importance. Why is it so important? Because face effectively determines where you stand politically in relation to other political players. And also people only follow politicians who they deem strong and manly.
It is very much like in prison: if the other prisoners deem you weak, you have to become someone's bitch in exchange for protection, or you have to suffer the heat other prisoners and gangs give you. If the other prisoners deem you strong, fierce, and skilled in battle, then they will not attack you and maybe even offer you alliances under acceptable conditions. Note here that it does not actually matter if you really are strong etc., if you can fool the others into thinking that you are. As long as no one calls your bluff, you are not in trouble. Forging alliances is also very helpful because you gain influence or protection, but you have to always save the face of your allies, because if you don't it turns allies to enemies and also deters future potential allies.
Because states are basically prison gangs and their leaders are gang leaders, understanding these prison mechanics is essential to understanding politics. An example: The US is currently one of the strongest gangs in prison, and they have forged alliances with the leaders of other gangs, for example with the president of country X. However, as the US are one of the strongest, it also means that the president of X basically submits to them, which makes him look like a prison bitch. It is thus necessary for the US to ensure that the president of X can make it look like he, not the president of the US, is the one who has control. This is what we call "saving face": the US get an ally (i.e. influence), and the president of X can tell his followers and leaders of other prison gangs that he has made a good deal with the US and didn't even have to bow his head, i.e. that he is a strong politician and worth fearing and following.
But this only works as long as everybody believes the lie. If now suddenly secret US messages appear that explicitly call the president of X "a prison bitch who sucks dick like a pro", then the president of X loses face, the whole country of X loses the respect other prison gangs which in turn results in the president of X losing the respect of his followers. This is why an incident like the release of secret diplomatic cables to the public is the absolute worst that could happen, as it topples the global card house of political face-saving that the US has crafted: they have publicly shamed many of their allies, and this results in damage that is very hard to repair. That they have also shamed their enemies, and finally themselves, might be true, but it is of less importance.
International politics and especially diplomacy is nothing but the century-old elaborate art of getting your way politically all the while maintaining face of everyone involved. This is also why diplomatic speech is so vague and lofty, and why diplomatic internas have to be kept secret: so everyone can save face more easily.
This kind of stuff seems irrelevant to the little man, but in the realm of politics it is absolutely essential. People who do not understand this, simply do not understand politics. My guess is that the reason for this lies in the difference between shame societies and guilt societies, and because most Westerners come from a guilt society, the have lost the capability of understanding how a shame society, which the realm of politics basically is, works.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 29, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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Fattrad, this would seem to put a big thorn in the side of your "Clash of Civilizations" argument.
Pretty clear from this that you cannot view all majority Islamic countries as a single bloc or civilization. Pretty clear that there are certain countries (Iran) that are viewed an extreme and/or a threat by other Islamic countries with which the US has better relations.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Because states are basically prison gangs and their leaders are gang leaders
That's what I always said, and ....
There's no escape .....
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