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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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Since Wyoming and Montana, areas encompassing Yellowstone National Park were involved, the State G & F people were "consulted" by the Feds. There were only objections to the Federal plan, but it was executed over the protests of the States so impacted. The rest, as the saying goes, is history.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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A great number for the BEGINNING of the program--what have the total expenses on OUR dime been since.
After that first year, the budget went waay up--but you won't want to dig up those numbers because YOU can't do that math...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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Jaybro-
About the supposed health problems from eating beef? Man, we need to talk! I'm not going to get into that issue here, causing thread drift!
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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TO DATE, Al C., to date--reread the question...
This is an interesting set of "datum":
COSTS OF WOLF REINTRODUCTION
While comprising approximately 2% of the population, farmers and ranchers provide the products that feed and clothe the rest of the nation. Farmers, ranchers and private property owners provide 70% of all wildlife habitat and forage. At the same time agriculture withstands most of the damage caused by wildlife.
POINTS TO PONDER
The cost of killing one pack of 5 wolves that were killing cattle and sheep near Browning, Montana, was $41,000. One wolf was impossible to catch because of constant movement. (Bill Rightmire, U.S. Department of Agriculture-Animal Damage Control, Billings, MT, July 18, 1998)
Minnesota annually kills depredating wolves at the cost of $1,225 each. (David Mech, "Challenge and Opportunity of Recovering Wolf Populations" 1995) Minnesota killed 227 wolves in 1997.
The USFWS office concerned with reintroducing wolves to the Smokey Mountains spent $140,000 a year for 8 years before ending this part of the North Carolina program. Authorities found that wolves could not survive in the Smokies old growth forest environment.
WOLF REINTRODUCTION COSTS TO AGRICULTURE BEFORE ANY DEPREDATION OCCURS
-Increased labor and feed costs from keeping livestock in or near barns at night
-Predator control costs from electric fencing, guard animals and adverse conditioning devices
-Extra help to tend livestock
-Phone calls to authorities reporting wolf sightings
-Replacement or vet bills caused by wolf attacks on guard dogs
-Weight loss and abortion of fetuses caused by stress and harassment from wolves
-Additional veterinary costs
COSTS AFTER DEPREDATION
-Phone calls to authorities reporting depredation
-Time lost finding carcasses or injured animals
-Time lost isolating the injured or killed animal(s) (the animal must not be moved)
-Time lost completing paperwork, correspondence and negotiation until payment is realized
-Time lost during the investigation and resolution of the problem (trapping, relocation, killing depredating animal)
-Replacement/shipment of breeding stock
COMPENSATION
-The attack or kill must be verified (there must be a freshly killed or injured animal and evidence of wolf involvement i.e. footprints and monitoring evidence)
-Difficulties of verification:
lack of corpse if devoured or carried off
scavengers and other predators making initial predation unidentifiable
with warm weather and a less than immediate investigation, predator bites and marks became unidentifiable
-Defenders of Wildlife only lists cattle and sheep for compensation
-Defenders' compensation fund only lasts until the wolf is delisted
RESOLUTION OF THE PROBLEM
-No action if there is no depredation
-The property owner kills the wolf while it is depredating (on private property)
-Trapping and releasing depredating females and pups on site until August
-Trapping and relocating depredating animals (which has proven remarkably ineffective)
-Wildlife Services (formerly ADC) kills the offending animal
COST OF WOLF REINTRODUCTION PROGRAM
-Importing wolves
-Continuing inoculations for heartworm, parvo etc.
-Radio collaring
-Monitoring signals
-Training personnel how to use traps etc.
-Increased expenditures for response to increased investigations of suspected depredation
-Increased funds needed for more intensive game management (trapping, lethal control, translocation, possible sterilization)
-Ongoing and increasing funding by the state for compensation when the wolf is down-listed
-Funding for legal fees to counter lawsuits brought by environmental organizations and property owners
LOSS OF FUNDS
-For wildlife management
-Consider losses incurred by Alaska
loss of ungulate harvest (moose 10-12%)
loss of bear harvest (25-30%)
loss of harvest of fur bearing animals
reduction of fish and game fund income
loss of taxable income from lodges and restaurants and hunting equipment as hunting declined
INCREASE IN TOURIST INCOME
-Is questionable - Yellowstone National Park shows no overall increase in tourism; weather, not wolves, is the determining factor in the number of tourists.While more tourists are entering by the gate where wolves are more visible, construction and traffic congestion at other gates is also a factor.
WHO THE PROGRAM BENEFITS
-Biologists
-Environmental organizations who send out continual fund-raising letters while pushing this program
MAXIMUM PENALTY FOR SHOOTING A REINTRODUCED WOLF
-One year in prison
-$100,000 fine
DEFENDERS OF WILDLIFE
The Wolf Management Committee developed a wolf recovery plan for Yellowstone, Glacier National Park and Central Idaho, also including Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. The committee had varied representation. Defenders of Wildlife and The National Wildlife Federation vetoed the plan. Defenders lobbied Congress for implementation of one part of the USFWS plan. The Wolf Committee plan was ignored.When Defenders of Wildlife first began to lobby for wolf reintroduction, they talked of "35 to 45" wolves in all of Yellowstone Park (Randall 1981:31). Now plans call for 10 wolf packs totaling approximately 100 wolves in Yellowstone. (Dr. Charles Kay) Wolves in Minnesota surpassed the number needed to remove the species from the Endangered Species List, yet were not allowed to be removed because wolf populations in Wisconsin and Michigan were far short of goals of the Eastern Wolf Recovery Plan. One state was hostage to what happened in other areas. (Dr. Charles Kay) Montana and Idaho issued draft plans for when wolf recovery would be turned over to state managers (Rachael 1995, Ream 1995). Both documents claimed that 20 wolf packs were needed in each area before hunting and trapping would be allowed. Thus, they have effectively doubled the number of wolves needed to meet ESA requirements. (Dr. Charles Kay)
The Sierra Club and Defenders of Wildlife said last week they would sue the USFWS if the federal agency agreed to turn over wolf management to Minnesota under any state plan that includes public hunting or trapping. (January 1998, Minnesota Outdoors News)
Defenders of Wildlife will not allow the Great Lake states to delist the wolf until a new rule has been approved for wolf recovery in the New England and Middle Atlantic States. (This would allow greater numbers of wolves to be required in these areas before they could be delisted.) (November 1998, Steve Kendrodt, Defenders of Wildlife)
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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I wasn't privy to the discussions; only the newspaper crap. It was various "Biodiversity," or "Friends of the Animals" type groups involved. Virtually everyone else thought the idea was a disaster-in-making.
To quote Professor Revilo P.Oliver, Distinguished professor of philology at the University of Illinois many years ago: "The real problem with do-gooders, is against whom they will do-good next."
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Apparently wolves are good for servers, too. From today's xkcd:
http://xkcd.com/819/
The mouseover caption reads:
"The wolves thin the RAID arrays, removing the slowest and weakest disks, to keep average seek speed high."
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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Guess that you don't see the word TOTAL highlighted in you quote re-post.
Oh well...
edit: Your (the questions directed at you on your post) questions were:
"And precisely/exactly how are you "familiar" with this issue, sir Crowley...
Know some ranchers with killed livestock, been in the ranching game yourself, investigated wolf predation? AND how do you know more than any of us ('cept for telling us you do) ?"
(Which is what we're all doing on this thread 'cept for a few.)
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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Your 15 year-old first year figure is accurate but misleading...
Do you really believe that your number (1996 stats) is ALL that was appropriated and budgeted for YNP wolves and their "re-introduction"?
Yikes! You really are an expert and DO know fairly know more on the subject than most.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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Moj, Broke, we can talk about this on email or something, as it works out. I'm just riding in, suckerfish like, on the Shark of Hysteria, here...
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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Jay--I'm just yapping off on this from a perspective of a Greater YNP "local". My interest in it fades away as soon as I click off this thread:-)
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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Great question, AC--you will not be able to find that controversial number that ires the tax-payer so. But, believe me that a ton of coin has gone into collering, tracking, data collection, man power, helicopter expenses, etc....SINCE that 1996 figure.
You won't believe me on this anyways, but I challenge the Great Crowley to find those numbers. You may just prove me to be a blow-hard, not the first time nor the last--but I doubt it.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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This guy knew how to deal with the pesky Lobo:
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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I'd be more worried about Nature's predatory habits than those Bonner county wolves...
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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A drop in the bucket compared to what we pay to subsidize the beef industry...
and then there's the medical expenses on the taxpayer's tab for people who eat beef...
jaybro,
i love a good steak! besides, if the gov pays for stupid ass climbers that need to be rescued then i ought to be able to eat a good steak.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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I dunno Hawk. I don't believe in either.
How do you feel about sinking your teeth into a cotton and down dressed el cap aspirant of a November-January vintage?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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AND how do you know more than any of us ('cept for telling us you do) ?"
edejom,
AC knows more about this than any of us cuz he livs in CA. they feeeel guilty about killin their great golden bear off. but they know damn well that their state is too civilized for those beasts or wolves. hell their black bears have learned how to break into cars fro chrissakes. but those califrnians know what best for montanans. i dont know when you montanans are gonna figure it out...
EDIT:
jay, sorry...i dont get it. but i do like beef sometimes.
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HighTraverse
Social climber
Bay Area
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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could someone tell me why the cali's honor the bear that they made extinct in their state? then to have you guys pretend to tell the other states how to manage their wildlife? freakin hilarious. What a silly argument.
Could it be because in the 88 years since the last one was killed we've learned something?
In California we've also saved the Brown Pelican, Peregrine Falcon (UC Santa Cruz) and California Condor (San Diego Wild Animal Park and Los Angeles Zoo) from near extinction, largely from DDT poisoning. The Bald Eagle, great American Symbol, might also be extinct if we still had DDT
The major cause of Condor losses now is lead from hunter's bullets, lead bullets now outlawed in California areas near Condor habitats for big game species. Lead bullets are still legal for upland game species in protection zones. (go figure).
I remember when DDT was banned in the US. The End Of The World Was Nigh! The Nixon administration fought a Federal District Court order to ban most uses of DDT. We would be overrun by insects and vermin. Agricultural production would be reduced. Farm workers would be out of work. Big Government was out to destroy the farmer and golf courses.
Now the wolves are going to do it? Give me a break.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Nov 15, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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HT, no personal offense. but no where else in the states that i know of have black bears learned to break into cars. cali's wildlife management has a hell of a lot to be desired.
why the hell havent you reintroduced grizz? cuz you dont want to f*#k with them at lake tahoe right?
EDIT:
BTW, i have personally cleaned up superfund sites contaminated with DDT so dont lecture me on the end of teh world crap. what most are saying is to shoot a few more wolves....frankly, i would like to see them, the wolves that is...but i also see the point of the ranchers.
this thread is why politics in merica is all f*#ked up. peeps would rather argue than try and unnerstand both sides of the equation and that is the STUPIDEST f*#kin thing that they can do..
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