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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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genuine bona fide question:
if wolves are (edit hypothetically) encroaching from the N & S, what will stop them from becoming like urban/suburban coyotes?
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taorock
Trad climber
Okanogan, WA
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Mar 23, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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So Brokedownclimber, is there a consensus in your community of how to approach this problem?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mar 23, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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I'm sorry that the teacher was killed. Her loved ones must be in pain.
For myself, we need wolves. We also need management of them. The picture of the woman that Jennie posted (damn strong woman in several ways) is one method of keeping the wolves on their toes. You shoot the ones too aggressive -that are crowding normal human space, and the rest will take to the hills and avoid people. My grandfather, a farmer from Colorado near the Black Canyon, once wound up with a wolf pup. He raised it, feeding it daily and just trying to connect. One time it just attacked him for no reason at all. He shot and killed it that day. What did he learn? They're wild animals, leave them the hell alone.
They come at ya you put in down, they leave you alone, you leave them alone. Ranchers need more leeway (or money in lieu of that) in dealing with them. It was a lot of effort to get rid of the beasts originally, they'll breed excessively unless you let those in the trenches manage them.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Mar 23, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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After reading parts of this thread, especially Rokjox's statements about how wolves "love to kill", last night I called my uncle who lives in northern British Columbia (about 100km south of Fort Nelson).
My uncle is in his early 70's and has lived in the north since his early 20's. He has mostly been a prospector and a trapper living off the grid until just recently when he needed a triple bypass and moved into town. Its the 1st time in his life that he's had a phone.
I asked him his perspective on wolves and if he has ever feared them, especially being in the bush so much by himself. He used to be dropped in by bush plane with supplies and spend the entire summer prospecting. He said the only animal he's afraid of is a grizzly and he's shot one to death while being charged. He said wolves do NOT kill for enjoyment….I tried to explain about this thread but he doesn't know what the internet is and said only that "people who haven't spent much time in the bush have all kinds of funny ideas". He said there is no wolf "problem" in northern BC and the only ones that need to worry are dogs. My grandmother was half Indian and my uncle is deeply connected with life outdoors and living surrounded by nature. He's a very tough guy who has done a lot of hunting and fishing for food over his lifetime. I'd say he's much more tuned in with what happens in the bush and with wolves, than are people who live in populated areas and go hiking and climbing now and then.
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taorock
Trad climber
Okanogan, WA
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Mar 23, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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Huge difference between wild animals in the wilderness and wild animals in or around urban scenes, rural areas and national parks
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 23, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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For a look at both sides of the wolf issue, read about Ernest Thompson Seton and his battle with Lobo, a giant wolf who decimated herds in northeastern New Mexico in the 1890's in the same valley homesteaded by my great grandparents.
When they first settled the area, wolves were so numerous and bold, that an armed guard had to ride in the school wagon with the children as they would be followed by wolves trying to jump in and grab the children's lunches.
The story of Lobo is sure to capture your heart however, and has all the makings of a classical Greek tragedy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobo_the_King_of_Currumpaw
It's unfathomable to me that wolves were reintroduced and will most certainly be exterminated once again for the same reasons as before.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 23, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
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“Don't you mean the state and federal lands that ranchers are destroying by overgrazing, and which they pay almost nothing to use for their benefit? We should take control of "our" lands and stop letting them graze their cows.”
Very naïve! My neighbors bought a small “allotment” near Pass Creek, from the Forest Service, to graze an ENFORCED maximum of 85 cows on. They paid $130,00 for it . They DON’T OWN IT and they still must pay a monthly, per cow, rental on it to graze four months out of the year.
How much did you “pay” for “your” land (this land in Idaho/ Montana/ Wyoming you pontificate about wisely controlling)?
Ranchers in Idaho are not rich. Most are barely scraping buy. When hay prices went up last year, many went out of business.
Please, the Rocky Mountain States are not your colonies. After witnessing what you’ve done to your own state, you’re hardly a candidate for “taking control” of ours.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 23, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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To answer Taorock:
The consensus is that wolves are no damned good. There is an old-fashioned 2 room schoolhouse, about a mile from my ranch, where the younger kids living in the valley attend school. They like to be able to play outside in nicer weather during their recesses, but that is now problematic. Should the teachers be armed? I know the parents all think they should!
Up until just recently, my disabled wife liked to be out with our cows during the day. No more, for several different reasons.
A wolf kill of a newborn calf only 50 yards from my house is a bit too close for me. Under Wyoming law, any animal--wild or domestic--actively attacking domestic livestock can be shot on sight. The USF&WS agrees that wolves outside the "Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem" boundaries attacking livestock are not protected.
I keep a scoped .308 next to the door. Any further questions?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 24, 2010 - 12:02am PT
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Atchafalaya-
The lands you are talking about in your ignorant generalization are not all the same. There are several categories of so-called "public lands." There is BLM Leased land, which is quite frequently the crappiest land around, that does only one thing: generate some revenue for the Great White Toilet in Washington, D.C. State Lease land is exactly that; owned by the individual states. In Wyoming, the revenues all go to schools and offset property taxes. Forest Service leases are probably the most restrictive and expensive; they limit the number of animal-days per year for the rental on the leased acreage. Ranchers are NOT stupid people, and realize that overgrazing hurts only their own use in the future. Ranchers also wind up feeding and watering the wildlife, making better habitat. I put out salt and minerals for my cattle and don't care if the deer or pronghorns use them. I also don't mind the animals using the water pumped by my windmills. When hunters approach me for access to the ranch, I charge only a minimum fee, the proceeds I use to fix the fencing torn down by the elk that sometime frequent my place in bad winters.
Ranching is a very tough way to make a living, my friend. Be a little more circumspect in your criticism, being more certain that your so-called facts are really "facts!"
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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Mar 24, 2010 - 12:13am PT
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Right on Brokedown and Jennie!
I grew up on a ranch too, and it's damn tough. Without wolves.
I know of local ranchers who went bust after they didn't get compensated for wolf kills.
If you haven't been in our shoes, you don't have a damn clue.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Mar 24, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Another perspective.
Like Kunlun Shan's uncle, I lived, with a small handful of other people, for some years in the wilderness in the middle of the territory of a wolf pack. (We were guiding paddling trips in northern Saskatchewan).(That's a few hundred miles north of the US border, on a line straight north from Denver for you Americans.)
We knew that once in a while they killed a goat from the herd of a guy homesteading a few miles away, but rarely enough that it didn't disturb his livelihood or his food supply.
In the time we weren't guiding we spent endless days and nights exploring the area around our base camp. Sometimes alone, sometimes in pairs. But despite being easy prey, not one of us was ever harassed, and the only sign we ever saw was footprints. Some of which were enormous.
This doesn't mean that ranchers in Idaho are not suffering. It doesn't mean that a schoolkid in Wyoming will never be attacked. But maybe it does mean that people who scream "Wolves are evil mass killers and must be destroyed" should be treated with about the same respect as people who purr "Wolves are our fuzzy buddies."
It's like the "Republicans are EVIL!!!" vs "No, Democrats are EVIL!!!" idiocy on other threads.
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taorock
Trad climber
Okanogan, WA
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Mar 24, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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Brokedownclimber,
Yeah. Who manages or has jurisdiction over the wolves outside of Yellowstone. The Feds or the State of Wyoming?
tao
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Mar 24, 2010 - 02:11am PT
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Tips on how to hunt wolves
http://www.huntwolves.com/how-to-hunt-wolves
Use your ears to locate them. "The biggest giveaway with wolves is their
howling," said Carter Niemeyer, who traps wolves for the Idaho Department
of Fish and Game.
Wolves howl in the evenings and early mornings. It gives you a good idea
of where they are at that moment.
Wolves are fast and quick. If you locate where they are howling, you can
form a strategy to call them within gun range.
If you set up in a random spot and start calling, odds are slim a wolf
will show up.
Calling is your best bet. "Anything that makes a squeal. A young animal in
distress is the key sound," said Becky Schwanke, a wolf biologist and
hunter in Glennallen, Alaska. "Get a good vantage spot and squeal away."
Rick Kinmon, an Alaska hunting guide who targets wolves, said he often
uses a combination of a distressed animal call and wolf howl, that way
you're appealing to their sense of opportunism for an easy meal and posing
as another wolf challenging their territory.
Respect their senses. Wolves have excellent eyesight, hearing and sense of
smell and know how to use them to protect themselves.
"Those things are unbelievably intelligent, and that's the biggest hurdle hunters are going to face," Schwanke said.
Monitor the wind direction, wear camo and be stealthy when approaching
your calling spot.
Expect long shots at moving animals. Kinmon has called in about 200
wolves, and most were long shots of several hundred yards or more. Only
two were standing still.
Kinmon said wolves will often stop well out of gun range of the caller, so
he positions his hunters in front of the spot where he's calling and
hopes they will intercept a wolf investigating the call.
Be prepared at all times. Whether stalking or calling, wolves aren't going
to present themselves for a shot for very long.
"You're going to get one quick chance and it's over, and it's over for the
whole pack," he said.
Winter is better than fall. "The best opportunity for wolves is winter,
because there are tracks, just like mountain lions," Schwanke said.
Winter usually concentrates deer and elk populations, and wolves follow.
(Note: It's illegal to hunt wolves within a half-mile of any active Fish
and Game feeding station.)
Winter also is the best time for wolf pelts. Niemeyer said hunters who are
serious about getting a wolf as a trophy should hold off until the winter
months, when young wolves, which are the most likely to be shot, have
grown larger and all wolves have put on their prime winter pelts.
He said a young wolf shot early in the season is going to be about the
size of big coyote and have a poor-quality pelt.
Don't expect them to be in the same spot twice. "They can go 15 to 20
miles in a night, no problem," Niemeyer said.
Don't overestimate their size. Wolves are smaller targets than they might
appear. It's easy to misjudge the distance and shoot over them. You
probably won't have time to use a range finder, so take their small size
into account.
Hunt ethically. Some Idaho hunters are frustrated with wolves and
convinced they're harming deer and elk herds. So the state will be under
intense scrutiny during the first wolf season.
"I hope hunters will represent themselves with dignity and be good role
models for sportsmen," Niemeyer said.
Read more: http://www.idahostatesman.com/2009/08/27/878307/wolf-hunting-tactics-know-your.html#ixzz0j4SpDhHX
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Mar 24, 2010 - 02:37am PT
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hey there say, jennie, and brokedownclimber...
first, jennie, thanks for posting the snow/wolfpack...
and brokedownclimber...
thanks for the share aboaut the wolf and the ranch situation at your
home... and as to your wife, etc, and outdoors...
my buddies have been seeing more wolves on their ranch this year, than before... or--better said, maybe, they are venturing closer, perhaps...
though, too, they DO have more coyotes, for sure... and they are venturing closer...
was just more worried about them, than i usually have been, after hearing this...
they are in montana...
thanks for the share...
and, may the good lord help the school teachers family, get through their future years, after this sad loss....
just stepped in to listen and maybe learn, and such, as to what was
going on here, as the post/thread has grown so much...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 24, 2010 - 03:13am PT
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Hi Neebee ! I hope you had a great trip.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 24, 2010 - 06:24am PT
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Taorock:
The Feds claim juridiction, but the courts have not decided the issue yet. The process of dealing with a wolf kill where only a carcass remains: G & F officer picks up the remains and sends it to the state lab for a determination by DNA testing. If a wolf is involved, then USF & WS sends out a professional hunter(s) to eliminate the problem animal. If the predator is "in the act" of killing a domestic animal or person, all restrictions are off.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 24, 2010 - 09:51am PT
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Added as a P.S. to the above post:
The Feds found there was a pair of black wolves that killed the neighbor's horse, here in our valley. The hunters got ONE of them. I suspect that the surviving wolf simply became more secretive--killed 3 of my calves.
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taorock
Trad climber
Okanogan, WA
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Mar 24, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Brokedownclimber, "in the act" sounds slippery. So is a wolf in your yard, not actually physically engaged, considered to be in the act?
And BTW, sorry about your loss of three calves.
Totally unrelated but will come back to another question, Last summer I was driving home from visiting family in Loveland, CO and I wanted to visit Vedavoo. Took the shortcut off the highway to Laramie that goes north on a dirt road and ends up at the monument. Anyway, I got behind what turned out to be a badger running along the road in front of me. I didn't realize this until I was passing him. I stopped for a better view and he veered off the road toward a small group of cows. All the cows looked up, but one charged the badger who veered again and said cow chased for a couple hundred feet or so. (This, along with some experiences last summer with gizzlies, in the Yukon, made me realize that my perceptions of animal behavior still has vestiges of all the BS our generation was fed as children by Disney).
So questions: Does size and character of herd offer protection from wolves? Are there any dog breeds that offer reliable protection or at least warning of wolf activity?
I've seen some real "tough" cows and bulls while doing field work all over AZ, i.e., I gave them very wide berths. Size of herd has been regulated way down from cows per acre to acres per cow (can't remember the actual numbers). I'd happen upon remains rarely. I figured most were from mtn. lion. Sounds like wolves get way more efficient.
tao
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 24, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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Taorock:
I'm not going to accuse you of "lawyering" with that question, since I really don't see that intent. Yeah, it is a very slippery slope that we are on in the ranching industry. If the wolf is in my yard near the cows, I consider "menacing" and intent to be enough. I'm certainly not going to wait for blood to be shed--the killing of another of my animals--to be my point of action.
By the way, the $150.00 was for ALL THREE CALVES! Not $150.00 apiece. Some of the animals killed were the last possible calves from older but highly prized cows. The end of a good bloodline, so to speak.
In reality, the cows are my wife's hobby--they are all her pets. It hits her particularly hard to lose one of them.
Re: animal behavior. There are some cows that are naturally more aggressive than others, and the breed has something to do with it. My herd is a very high grade Gelbvieh/Angus crossbreed, referred to in the breeder circles as "balancers." The bulls are frequently very large, but almost completely non-aggressive. The meanest bulls are from a dairy breed--Jerseys, who have a pretty high death toll among those who work with them.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Mar 24, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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//Kinmon said wolves will often stop well out of gun range of the caller, so
he positions his hunters in front of the spot where he's calling and
hopes they will intercept a wolf investigating the call.//
Smart animals! I got a lot of respect for any animal that smart. Maybe someone know the mythical attachment of wolves and Indians?
I suppose I could google it...
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