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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Jan 31, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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"I think it sucks but I also don't see what other choice the NPS has.
People will b-tch at first if they hike up and discover they can't actually get on the cables, but they will adjust to it, the way we have adjusted to other things like backcountry backpacking permits, or the way tourists have adjusted to planning ahead to get a campsite in a crowded park. I don't love those either but the rationales to keep limited natural resources from being trodden over are legitimate. I think per-trip permitting systems probably don't exist primarily to raise money since they cost a lot of labor to administer. Use fees, like the bogus National Forest parking fees, I have a bigger problem with."
Realistic options, disregarding the ridiculousness of gubermint beaurocracy, have been given by a number of supertaco-ans. There's choices, if the beaurocrats have the cojones to make them.
The loss of freedom that permits systems represent has sent me and others out of California on to other climes, where the likes of Western Slope No Fee Coalition still have the wherewithall to keep up the fight. I guess you guys don't mind having to wait in line and pay to access lands that are fundamentally ours. John Muir would weep.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Ice Caves at the Sads
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Jan 31, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
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Also, sandblast the surface to restore the original friction/texture.
It has gotten too polished from traffic over the years.
The slippery surface slows down the less capable folks and creates the congestion, and the risk/slipping problem.
totally opposed to this option.
why modify the rock to make it safer for someone that shouldn't be up there?
the vast majority of people that hike to the top of Half Dome are the same type that hike to the top of Whitney.
they aren't seeking a wilderness experience, they just want to call the wife, gf, mom from the top.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jan 31, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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>> Also, sandblast the surface to restore the original friction/texture.
>> It has gotten too polished from traffic over the years.
>> The slippery surface slows down the less capable folks and creates the congestion, and the risk/slipping problem.
> totally opposed to this option.
> why modify the rock to make it safer for someone that shouldn't be up there?
The hiking traffic has already modified (polished) the rock from its original condition, and you are opposed to modification, right?
This would be a restoration.
(Though I'm no expert on sandblasting; I just heard this might work.
Some testing would be needed, of course.)
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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so JesseM, climbing ranger, where do you stand on this, or can you safely venture an opinion?
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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JesseM wrote:
We have already been sued twice in the past ten years for not addressing user capacity issues in regards to the Merced Wild and Scenic River. These are your fellow Americans asking us through litigation to reduce the amount of use to the Parks.
Les Wilson and many others here know the full story, and I was not involved in the litigation, but a few points:
Jesse indentifies himself as just the "messenger" but apparently feels enough long-term kinship with the Park Service to use "we."
If I remember correctly, the NPS and its subcontractors were breaking federal law by wantonly dumping sediment into the Merced.
Setting up straw men--citizens who would litigate--to subtly smear those who are now criticizing this new Half Dome proposal is underhanded in my book. This is a separate matter, and would just concentrate angry people who didn't know about the Half Dome permit system on the Valley floor. They'd still come into the park.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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They should just remove the first 50 feet of the cables at the bottom. People who shouldn't be there will be freaked out and turn back, no paperwork or ranger needed. :0)
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Munge is spot on.
Others have good ideas for solving the problem--insofar as it exists. Ideas that they came up with while chewing on the last crust of their sandwich. How many weeks--months--did the Park admin take to come up with this ridiculous (and insidious) permit idea?
Instead of an interim plan, how about just a good plan from the start?
For 84,000 visitors, 1 or 2 fatalities is a tiny number, as tragic as they are (traffic accident fatalities are around 12-15/100,000 pop./yr.). But the PS could start by bringing the cables up to snuff at least. Missing rungs? Too much play in the stanchions? Fix it.
Add a cable, improve the texture, design better steps--all would improve the flow of people, as others have said. But you probably won't touch the fatality rate.
The PS is using the safety issue to set a very dangerous precedent that will lead to a permit process for technical climbers on popular routes. Who are we compared to 84,000 Half Dome hikers? Haven't we all been in line at the base of the Snake Dike? And isn't the cable route on Half Dome a climb of sorts--the kind that many average people can engage?
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Shingle
climber
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Are the permits transferable?
"Yes. You can give a permit to anyone else, but each permit can only be used once. Permits cannot be resold or auctioned."
Hmmmmmm.....
I suppose a guide service would not be precluded from obtaining permits in advance for use by their clients John and Jane Doe of Fresno?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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"Permits are not available in the park or on a first-come, first-served basis."
Further thought on this.
The NPS has backcountry 'FCFS' permits, why not HD from the same locations? What additional overhead would their be? I'm not saying that all 400 need to be available FCFS, but new programs should be made to accomodate actual visitor usage as already done here...
First-Come, First-Served Permits
Permits are also available at any permit issuing station starting one day prior to the beginning of your hike. All wilderness permits must be picked up in person by a member of the hiking group. Priority for permits for a particular trailhead is given to the closest permit issuing station, though it is possible to obtain a permit for any trailhead at any permit issuing station. This mainly affects the most popular trailheads that fill up quickly each morning, such as Little Yosemite Valley trailheads, Lyell Canyon, Cathedral Lakes, among others.
http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm
still does not address the purported safety impetus, but I'm very surprised at the approach.
Does the cost of the Credit Card permits account for the cost of additional signage that will be needed to turn hikers away? Signage that will be needed at permit stations, trailheads, park entrances and to re-print Yosemite hand out printed materials at all entrances? [The cost of enforcement at the base around the weekend is an obvious cost already factored.]
again, not addressed at Jesse as the messenger.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The perfect place for a pair of all-weather escalators. Could be a stimulus package deal with good jobs for climbers for a year or two.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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boy are we f*^#ed....
good bye sudden impulse..
i bet there's an app for that!
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WBraun
climber
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The public caused this mess in first place.
The Park service is bound to manage the mess.
When a big mess comes up the Park service ends up having to do something about it whether they want to or not.
The NPS is bound by their nature to have to manage for better or worse.
This is what happens when there is over use ......
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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If you charge a fee and there is no option for a free walkup system,
then it amounts to a user fee for the cables.
Charging use fees may mean the land manager is no longer protected from liability by the California Recreational Use Statute.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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All this bitching about a $1.50 service charge, man you guys are starting to sound like conservatives!
"
We need more earthquakes. Seriously."
Not cool dude, not cool at all.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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Werner,
The point is: there ain't no mess. Unless humanity is a mess, which is a given. But in this case, there are practical solutions that are clearly miles better than the proposal we are hearing about.
As a climber, I like the idea that the average non-climber can go on an adventure--on a whim--and do a life-changing aid climb...might awaken in that person an appreciation that will help support parks in the future.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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GDavis, it ain't the buck fifty. It is having to make a reservation. It is having to decide 6 months in advance that you want to hike half dome. It is how the system is set up with no first come first served day of the hike spots. It is the simple fact that with reservations, there will be plenty of no shows everyday, just as there are in campgrounds, but no way to let people use them. It is the fact that they claim to want to avoid people getting hurt or dying, yet the system will force some to make foolish decisions and push the weather window because it will be the only chance they have to make the hike.
There are tons of reasons that a permit system is messed up and one simple thing which would fix the current problem, and that is put in a third cable for those going down and roughen the surface that has been polished by so many thousands of hikers.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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and there's more-
what fee, that any of you are aware of, is currently the same amount as it began?
"ONLY $1.50"
"doesn't apply on weekdays"
"doesn't apply to climbers"
" X # of slots / day"
etc
etc
and all of that applies only until "they" change their mind, or the next budget crisis, or they need to "fund" the "new signage", or pay for the ranger(s) time to administer the permits, or pay for the costs of rescues, or the replacement of the cables,
you want fewer people going up and down?
simple!
remove the bars and 2x4's and let the cables lie on the granite, like in the off season. i have batman'ed up and down them in sneakers in that condition, and it's fine.
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WBraun
climber
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tarek and people
There is a mess in the eyes of the NPS otherwise this permit thing would not be happening.
Don't look at Jesse or me we have nothing to do with this thing.
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