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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 23, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
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Its the end of the world as we know it....
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apogee
climber
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Jan 23, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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"does anyone seriously believe mccain-feingold limited corporate influence since it was passed?"
No, I really don't. And yes, I was disappointed in Obama's backing away from his campaign promise to not take corporate $. Gosh, oh gee, shucks, though, bookworm, you sure are right about them dang pol-ee-tish-uhns...they ain't to be trusted. I'm sure McCain would've flip-flopped on far fewer of his promises.
Dude, drop the 'I told you so's' about campaign promises, huh? Any reasonable person knows damn well that politicians make promises on the campaign trail, then they break them once in office. How about we rise above the 'I told you so' BS and discuss what is actually happening while they are in office?
M-F had problems, to be sure. But similar to the recent POS healthcare reform bill, it was an attempt to deal with a real problem. Achieving ideal solutions is no longer possible in our current polarized political system, which is for all intents & purposes controlled entirely by corporate special interest groups. When Repugs shriek about how M-F did not achieve it's intent, or that the current healthcare bill doesn't fix the problem perfectly, what they really mean is 'I don't support this issue in any way, shape or means, and want it to fail'.
bookworm, you obviously don't support the idea of campaign finance limitations in any manner whatsoever, and see it has free speech infringement, period. At least stop creating distracting arguments and be consistent with presenting the rationale for your position.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 24, 2010 - 06:45am PT
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As does any civil libertarian who understands freedom of speech.
John
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 24, 2010 - 06:57am PT
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Again, from a Stare decisis perspective this was a radically activist decision which casts out any lingering doubt about exactly who the real 'activist' judges on the Court are and who is bent on "damn the precedent - full speed ahead" or, in this case, full speed in reverse. Roberts' and Alito's own words during confirmation make them world class hypocrites with an agenda. Not that that was a surprise given the cabal of ex-Reagonites in the Bush administration.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 24, 2010 - 08:06am PT
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oops. guess i was wrong...there really are people out there who want to use "free speech" to control the system by manipulating information so us gun and god clingers cain't see the obamas fer the barrys...jes take a hankerin' at dis...
"Sunstein advocates that the Government’s stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into “chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups.” He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called “independent” credible voices to bolster the Government’s messaging (on the ground that those who don’t believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government)."
whooo-weeee! you dern libs hit the nail on the head this time...this guy sunstein needs an ass-whuppin' and we should put his whole corporation in jail...
oh, wait, cass sunstein works for the president, which means he works for the government, which means we pay his salary (and health benefits)...and he believes it's a good idea for the government to use "STEALTH INFILTRATION" and "SECRET PAYMENTS" to promote the government's policies on such PUBLIC media as chat rooms, social networks, and even newspapers...holy shite! these guys are so unethical they'll probably start having "town hall meetings" with hand-picked audiences and write the questions themselves...or have abc NEWS produce an hour-long broadcast promoting their policies
then there's this tidbit from hotair:
"In recent days, a letter defending Obama has appeared in dozens of newspapers throughout the country — all signed by an “Ellie Light.” In the letters, which all use identical language, Ms. Light explains that Obama never promised to fix all our problems quickly or painlessly. She declares:
'Today, the president is being attacked as if he’d promised that our problems would wash off in the morning. He never did. It’s time for Americans to realize that governing is hard work, and that a president can’t just wave a magic wand and fix everything.'
Editors all over the country found Light’s message strangely compelling. It was reprinted at The Politico; the Philadelphia Daily News; the San Francisco Examiner; the Washington Times; and a USA Today blog. In addition, the letter has appeared at literally dozens of small-town papers across the country, with names like the Los Banos Enterprise, the North Adams Transcript, and the Danbury News-Times.
Ms. Light always claims to be a local in these letters. Her real estate holdings are apparently prodigious, as she has claimed residences in Philadelphia, PA; Daly City, California; Mansfield, Ohio; Waynesboro, Virginia; Algoma, Wisconsin; Bangor, Maine; and dozens of other places. Who said Obama supporters were all downtrodden?
The story was originally broken by the Cleveland Plain Dealer, which published a thread of e-mail correspondence between the reporter and “Ellie Light.” But the original Plain Dealer story identified only the tip of the iceberg.
With the help of my commenters, I have been keeping a running total at my blog of the places where Light’s letter has appeared. At last count, her letter has appeared in at least 47 newspapers in at least 23 different states.
So far, that is. That number is growing all the time. It even appeared in a newspaper in Bangkok, Thailand!
As you can see at my blog, the states where her letters appear correspond quite well with the states that Obama won."
but wait, if the government takes over all the corporations, then it doesn't have to worry about the corporations taking over the government
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 24, 2010 - 08:11am PT
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oh, wait, cass sunstein works for the president, which means he works for the government, which means we pay his salary (and health benefits)...and he believes it's a good idea for the government to use "STEALTH INFILTRATION" and "SECRET PAYMENTS" to promote the government's policies on such PUBLIC media as chat rooms, social networks, and even newspapers...holy shite! these guys are so unethical they'll probably start having "town hall meetings" with hand-picked audiences and write the questions themselves...or have abc NEWS produce an hour-long broadcast promoting their policies
All the techniques perfected to a high art by Karl Rove.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 24, 2010 - 08:11am PT
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"No, I really don't. And yes, I was disappointed in Obama's backing away from his campaign promise to not take corporate $. Gosh, oh gee, shucks, though, bookworm, you sure are right about them dang pol-ee-tish-uhns...they ain't to be trusted. I'm sure McCain would've flip-flopped on far fewer of his promises."
well, you can take away all of barry's broken promises about bush's evil and unconstitutional and unamerican policies concerning the war on terror...so, you're right, mccain would have flipped on "far fewer" promises
now, apogee, i'll stop my "distracting" as soon as you admit your vote for barry wasn't based on your own independent assessment of the issues or candidates but rather the influence and manipulation by all of barry's evil corporate donors (or reveal your elitism by claiming you're immune to such nonsense)
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 24, 2010 - 09:03am PT
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All the techniques perfected to a high art by Karl Rove.
Please provide an example.
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apogee
climber
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Jan 24, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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"now, apogee, i'll stop my "distracting" as soon as you admit your vote for barry wasn't based on your own independent assessment of the issues or candidates but rather the influence and manipulation by all of barry's evil corporate donors (or reveal your elitism by claiming you're immune to such nonsense)"
P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S, bookworm, it's called politics.
There hasn't been a person in the history of the US who didn't find themselves disappointed or downright duped in their choice of a POTUS. Politicians make promises, and we swallow them- if we're lucky, we get a POTUS who has a bit more integrity than most, and if the rest of the stars align in the current state of the country, they fulfill a few more of their promises than others.
You constantly rub Obama's backpeddling into the nose of others like a bad puppy in their piddles. What's the point? You appear to be trying to assert your righteousness in a situation that cuts back in directly towards your own party in a 'glass houses' kind of way.
One thing's for sure, though, and that is that the infusion of corporate special interest $ into our electoral process is simply going to make that situation a whole lot worse, not better. The voice of the citizens, a basic tenet of the structure the Founding Fathers laid forth, is becoming more and more distant in the democratic process.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 24, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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"barry's evil corporate donors"....
In fact....Obama set all-time records for small donations (less than $100}, the percentage of large versus small donations was the smallest in modern times by a wide margin.
But please Bookworm...don't let any facts get in the way of your rants, its a good way for the rest of us to see what sort of rubbish the republagumbies are being fed by their fair and balanced news sources.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 24, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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""a corporation is just a collection of individual human beings acting together to achieve a common, lawful purpose."
Bwahahahahahahahahhh, OMFG!~that's got to be the biggest steaming pile of blahshit I've ever read on supertopo....
No exaggeration!
try replacing common, lawful with profit. for starters.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jan 24, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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stevep wrote: I do check the donate to elections box on my tax return. In fact I'd happily donate $20/yr to publicly fund elections.
This, or some variation on it, is more or less exactly what DMT and I are proposing via constitutional amendment. 1 - Remove the rights of any larger entity than the individual to pay for elections, and 2 - Provide a new method for elections to be funded, either out of the public coffer or from limited individual contributions.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Jan 24, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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Wandafuca wrote: Plain and simple: all people are equal, but those "people" with more money are more equal than others.
apologies to G.O.
Why are you apologizing to me?
GO
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
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Yeah 426, the idea that corporations behave like Democratic institutions is pretty laughable. In practice, as opposed to fundamentalist free market theory, most corporations are run as private fiefdoms by their executive officers, independent board rooms seem to be almost non existant.
The fact that corporate governance is such a huge problem in an of itself, only makes this supreme court decision even more worrying.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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Another big prob, fatty....what you and lez, blah and other for lack of a better term, corporate shills *(nyuck) haven't admitted is the facts of the matter:...
"The First Amendment confirms the freedom to think for ourselves," said Justice Anthony Kennedy, reading the court's 5-4 majority opinion
If the goal was for people to think for themselves, you would actually BAN partisan advertising money. Duh!
QED...
...immortal, not eating or drinking, etc, how is a corporation a "person"....? Wait, let me grab my dictionary...this is not a matter of connotation, esse...
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
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"Yes, us shareholders want to own businesses that make money."
This decision is going to hurt competition by further cementing the power of the biggest corporations, enhancing their ability to stifle disruptive technologies, and bury smaller competitors.
Furthermore, us shareholders are now going to see even more of our profits (what little is left, after crony sanctioned executive boondoggle compensation is siphoned off) pissed away on corrupt politicians.
So no fatty, not exactly an Xmass present for shareholders either.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Jeremy wrote: The fact that corporate governance is such a huge problem in an of itself, only make this supreme court decision even more worrying.
I agree Jeremy...money is power.
So giving more power (money) to the same corporations who almost tanked the world (and got bailed out and are now posting huge profits and bonuses) is not a issue to the likes of Fat, bookdick and so forth.
Thick as thieves.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Jan 24, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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have you looked at barry's donors? interesting how many of them work for the same big CORPORATIONS and donated the maximum permitted...of course, it's probably just a co-inky-dink
apogee, i'm not harping on barry's broken promises (that's for f's thread), i'm asking you to admit your vote had nothing to do with the issues or the candidates--much less your thoughtful consideration of such--but was entirely determined by the special interests (corporations, unions, 527s, etc.) that spent a record amount of money to get barry elected...or you can make the claim that YOU are not susceptible to such propaganda and that your concern about scotus' ruling is just for us clingers who can't think for ourselves...wait, that doesn't make sense; we clingers voted for palin...you must be worried about everybody else who voted for barry because now the eeeeevvvvuuuuullllll corporations are going to seduce them into voting against their best interests; i mean, the repubs could nominate SATAN, and the corporations would get him elected
i think by your reasoning, all climbers would only buy north face or patagonia since they spend the most on advertising
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